Explosions reported in Manchester?
Discussion
Raygun said:
Gaddafi was responsible for a bombing a disco where loads of US servicemen got killed, he was responsible for the bombing of a plane over Lockerbie, he bankrolled the IRA .
If we knew what would happen once Gaddafi was got rid of I dare say our approach would have been different, there seems to be a lot of people on here bulls
tting as if they knew what would happen once Gaddafi went and at a guess some of them probably weren't even born when Gaddafi was carrying out his terrorist acts.
I think most would agree that Gaddafi couldn't be allowed to continue, whenever they were born. The recurring issue is the failure to put something in place which is a sustainable demonstrable improvement.If we knew what would happen once Gaddafi was got rid of I dare say our approach would have been different, there seems to be a lot of people on here bulls
tting as if they knew what would happen once Gaddafi went and at a guess some of them probably weren't even born when Gaddafi was carrying out his terrorist acts.It would appear that all that has happened is a change in the nature of the problem. Doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different outcome is the well known definition of insanity.
What we're looking at is a hideously complicated situation that cannot be simplified in to a simple do x, then y and the result will be z. As no-one can agree on x and y and the ideal of what z should actually be.
This is a long term issue which isn't going to be resolved quickly. However, it doesn't look like bombs are going to get it done, for anyone.
I think this overall discussion should be on a different thread as it has evolved rapidly from the original subject.
del mar said:
e21Mark said:
del mar said:
MikeT66 said:
Yes - the point I was trying to make. Having no religious education in schools could still lead to indoctrination away from the education system in churches/mosques, etc, as the knowledge and education of other viewpoints gets watered down. At least pre-arming youngsters with knowledge of other beliefs/social systems can hopefully lead to more acceptance of other viewpoints and hopefully more examination and questioning of the established religions and their ethics. Fundamental Muslim, Christian or Jew - your children will learn the basics of humanity, including upholding the rights of all people in our country - women and LGBT rights included. Don't like it? Tough.
I find it interesting that many of the more recent brain-dead losers that have committed terrorist acts are British-born but a few generations down from new immigrant status - leading a conclusion that their indoctrination has been learned whilst residing in the UK.
Fundamental Muslim - that is a new one, where do they fit in between half muslim, muslim, moderate muslim, extremist muslim ?I find it interesting that many of the more recent brain-dead losers that have committed terrorist acts are British-born but a few generations down from new immigrant status - leading a conclusion that their indoctrination has been learned whilst residing in the UK.
Which chapters do you need to follow to be deemed "Fundamental" ?
Maybe also ask them why they're ignoring whole sections of the text they hold sacred?
[b] Islam views suicide as one of the greatest sins and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. A verse in the Quran instructs;
"And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
—?Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 29 [12]
Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.
Abu Dawud: "This puts suicide bombing and suicide into proper perspective within Islamic traditions, ultimately denouncing suicide of any form." Scholars affirm that suicidal bombing is an unlawful practice and has nothing to do with Islam.[13]
The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670
Furthermore, Jafar al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam, has said the following with regards to suicide[citation needed]:
Abi Walad said, I heard Aba Abd Allah say: “Whoever kills himself, intentionally, he will be in the fire of hell for eternity.” [/b]
Raygun said:
If we knew what would happen once Gaddafi was got rid of I dare say our approach would have been different
Modern western politicians do not have the capacity to learn from history....they have their own personal agendas.
RTB said:
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Good people do good things, bad people do bad things, but for good people to do bad things needs religion. It's a very simple point. p1stonhead said:
There are just consequences which we can't pretend don't exist. Advertising our revenge bomb I think is a bit in poor taste despite obvious outrage at what happened. It wasn't anyone in the Middle East who did it, it was a British bloke so unless the bomb is going towards his house in Manchester all people who hate us will see is us bombing them again for technically something they didn't do (but granted may have inspired)
If you don't want that coming down your chimney, maybe don't claim responsibility for acts of terror performed by others?Corbyns comments regarding the bombing in Manchester, show two things. 1. He is an apologist for terrorists, carrying out attacks against the UK, trying to find ways of blaming the UK for what happened on Monday, and in previous attacks, like the one at Westminster only a few weeks ago.
(not to mention the comments of that disgusting creature Abbott)
2. The Manchester attack brings into contrast the nature between the West, compared to the Middle East. What these terrorists are doing now, is the equivalent of people from the various countries who lost loved ones in WW1 and WW2 travelling to Germany or Japan now, and blowing up innocents, in revenge attacks for what happened in 1914-18 and 1939-45.
I have mentioned before that the West should not have got involved in the various Middle Eastern conflicts, which were usually based on differences in religious attitudes/sects. because even where the West thought it was helping out one side, or another, BOTH sides just saw it as infidels interfering in their affairs.
The only way religious extremism will be stopped is when the religion itself takes action against those who purport to carry out these acts of terror on its behalf, but since their stated aim is to dominate the world, just like it has been since well before the Crusades, paying little more than lip service against such acts of terror, is probably all it will ever do.
(not to mention the comments of that disgusting creature Abbott)
2. The Manchester attack brings into contrast the nature between the West, compared to the Middle East. What these terrorists are doing now, is the equivalent of people from the various countries who lost loved ones in WW1 and WW2 travelling to Germany or Japan now, and blowing up innocents, in revenge attacks for what happened in 1914-18 and 1939-45.
I have mentioned before that the West should not have got involved in the various Middle Eastern conflicts, which were usually based on differences in religious attitudes/sects. because even where the West thought it was helping out one side, or another, BOTH sides just saw it as infidels interfering in their affairs.
The only way religious extremism will be stopped is when the religion itself takes action against those who purport to carry out these acts of terror on its behalf, but since their stated aim is to dominate the world, just like it has been since well before the Crusades, paying little more than lip service against such acts of terror, is probably all it will ever do.
Raygun said:
Gaddafi was responsible for a bombing a disco where loads of US servicemen got killed, he was responsible for the bombing of a plane over Lockerbie, he bankrolled the IRA .
If we knew what would happen once Gaddafi was got rid of I dare say our approach would have been different, there seems to be a lot of people on here bullstting as if they knew what would happen once Gaddafi went and at a guess some of them probably weren't even born when Gaddafi was carrying out his terrorist acts.
Short memories are part of the problem. No doubt the post 9/11 foreign adventures haven't helped, but there was plenty of Islamic terrorism going on in lots of countries before that. It's not just because the nasty west invaded Afghanistan.If we knew what would happen once Gaddafi was got rid of I dare say our approach would have been different, there seems to be a lot of people on here bulls
tting as if they knew what would happen once Gaddafi went and at a guess some of them probably weren't even born when Gaddafi was carrying out his terrorist acts.CrutyRammers said:
Short memories are part of the problem. No doubt the post 9/11 foreign adventures haven't helped, but there was plenty of Islamic terrorism going on in lots of countries before that. It's not just because the nasty west invaded Afghanistan.
Agree, there is some MASSIVE memory shortfall going on here.....otolith said:
p1stonhead said:
There are just consequences which we can't pretend don't exist. Advertising our revenge bomb I think is a bit in poor taste despite obvious outrage at what happened. It wasn't anyone in the Middle East who did it, it was a British bloke so unless the bomb is going towards his house in Manchester all people who hate us will see is us bombing them again for technically something they didn't do (but granted may have inspired)
If you don't want that coming down your chimney, maybe don't claim responsibility for acts of terror performed by others?ELUSIVEJIM said:
Funny how President Robert Mugabe has slaughtered his own people for decades but we do not go and bomb him. It seems we turn a blind eye when their is nothing in it for us.
And Rwanda, there was no oil there either. Oh, you didn't actually say that though.... And Bosnia, it took years before 'we' went in.
We have billions of quids to fight wars in countries that hate us, and have nothing to do with us, but we can't run the NHS properly, or pensions....
And someone suggested on BBC this morning that Islamic terrorism in our country might be related to British military conflicts abroad. Really, ya reckon?
Pan Pan Pan said:
Corbyns comments regarding the bombing in Manchester, show two things. 1. He is an apologist for terrorists, carrying out attacks against the UK, trying to find ways of blaming the UK for what happened on Monday, and in previous attacks, like the one at Westminster only a few weeks ago.
Something I said on another thread.After Monday how many comments have we seen along the lines of "Just f
kking nuke the middle east" or "We should bomb the st out of Libya"?Some people take the view "They killed our kids so let's kill them" and whilst it's only a tiny minority who think that way if they had the chance do you think they'd press the button and do it?
See any parallels?
It doesn't excuse it in any way shape or form but it seems a bit simplistic to say our actions overseas have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Alpinestars said:
Comply? You disillusioned little man you.
Here try this. And please post reasons for your juxtaposition.
I'll make it easy for you.
Bin Laden's letter. Apologies the paper doesn't swing the same way as you do.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theo...
Rigby's killer, an eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth. I'm not going to post a direct link to the video, but that's what he said after killing Rigby. Click the video if you want.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/19/le...
Jihadi John - States the reason for beheading a U.S. citizen is because of the U.S.' foreign policy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-111716...
Research on why people join ISIS
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/...
Max Abraham's paper
https://fsi.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Abrah...
Lots of other sources are available via Google.
Edited to add, that for the avoidance of doubt, these are not my views as to why terrorists commit atrocities. They are reasons cited by terrorists themselves.
Excellent post, especially the Max Abrahms paper. Thanks Here try this. And please post reasons for your juxtaposition.
I'll make it easy for you.
Bin Laden's letter. Apologies the paper doesn't swing the same way as you do.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theo...
Rigby's killer, an eye for and eye, a tooth for a tooth. I'm not going to post a direct link to the video, but that's what he said after killing Rigby. Click the video if you want.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/dec/19/le...
Jihadi John - States the reason for beheading a U.S. citizen is because of the U.S.' foreign policy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-111716...
Research on why people join ISIS
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/...
Max Abraham's paper
https://fsi.stanford.edu/sites/default/files/Abrah...
Lots of other sources are available via Google.
Edited to add, that for the avoidance of doubt, these are not my views as to why terrorists commit atrocities. They are reasons cited by terrorists themselves.
Edited by Alpinestars on Thursday 25th May 22:45
I have to say, I was pretty embarrassed at my levels of ignorance of what went before in relation to the West and what was inflicted / manipulated by the US and British governments. Admittedly I was just a boy when much of this took place and like many people, I trusted the Governments were making decisions with our best interests at heart. I guess we, as a society, have been waking up to the things being done in our name and watching films like the Adam Curtis' (Hypernormilisation) shows why we find ourselves in the position we are. Goodness knows how we are going to get ourselves out of this mess but it's going to take more than military intervention.
e21Mark said:
You'd have to ask them.
Maybe also ask them why they're ignoring whole sections of the text they hold sacred?
[b] Islam views suicide as one of the greatest sins and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. A verse in the Quran instructs;
"And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
—?Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 29 [12]
Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.
Abu Dawud: "This puts suicide bombing and suicide into proper perspective within Islamic traditions, ultimately denouncing suicide of any form." Scholars affirm that suicidal bombing is an unlawful practice and has nothing to do with Islam.[13]
The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670
Furthermore, Jafar al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam, has said the following with regards to suicide[citation needed]:
Abi Walad said, I heard Aba Abd Allah say: “Whoever kills himself, intentionally, he will be in the fire of hell for eternity.” [/b]
You are correct, hanging, stabbing yourself, throwing yourself off a mountain and drinking poison are all banned.Maybe also ask them why they're ignoring whole sections of the text they hold sacred?
[b] Islam views suicide as one of the greatest sins and utterly detrimental to one's spiritual journey. A verse in the Quran instructs;
"And do not kill yourselves, surely God is most Merciful to you."
—?Qur'an, Sura 4 (An-Nisa), ayat 29 [12]
Most Muslim scholars and clerics consider suicide forbidden and similarly include suicide bombing as being equally forbidden.
Abu Dawud: "This puts suicide bombing and suicide into proper perspective within Islamic traditions, ultimately denouncing suicide of any form." Scholars affirm that suicidal bombing is an unlawful practice and has nothing to do with Islam.[13]
The prohibition of suicide has also been recorded in statements of hadith, (sayings of Muhammad). For example:
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "He who commits suicide by throttling shall keep on throttling himself in the Hell Fire (forever) and he who commits suicide by stabbing himself shall keep on stabbing himself in the Hell-Fire."
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 2:23:446
Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever purposely throws himself from a mountain and kills himself, will be in the (Hell) Fire falling down into it and abiding therein perpetually forever; and whoever drinks poison and kills himself with it, he will be carrying his poison in his hand and drinking it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever; and whoever kills himself with an iron weapon, will be carrying that weapon in his hand and stabbing his abdomen with it in the (Hell) Fire wherein he will abide eternally forever."
—?Sahih al-Bukhari, 7:71:670
Furthermore, Jafar al-Sadiq, the sixth Shia Imam, has said the following with regards to suicide[citation needed]:
Abi Walad said, I heard Aba Abd Allah say: “Whoever kills himself, intentionally, he will be in the fire of hell for eternity.” [/b]
This appeared in the Times a couple of weeks ago in a letter by a Muslim
Quran (9:111) - "Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain:
It is all interpretation, there are lots of other examples where Mohammed realising he was losing a battle offered Paradise to his men if they died in battle - They got up and ran to their death, which would be suicidal surely ?
Suicide for the sake of it is banned, "dying" whilst fighting against infidels / non believers doesn't appear to be. Martyrdom is richly rewarded .
People on all sides will find justification in the texts for their actions, just as you and I can try to out do each other, I don't think you are wrong nor is any Muslim following your above quotes wrong, but nor do I think any Muslim following the other verses is necessarily wrong either.
ELUSIVEJIM said:
Funny how President Robert Mugabe has slaughtered his own people for decades but we do not go and bomb him. It seems we turn a blind eye when their is nothing in it for us.
The best thing we could is stop spending Billions fighting in countries which do not even want us there.
The difference is, what he does doesn't affect the West (harsh but true). Same for Pie Boy Kim, until he starts flinging Nukes...then things will change.The best thing we could is stop spending Billions fighting in countries which do not even want us there.
Edited by Dr Doofenshmirtz on Friday 26th May 10:21
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Something I said on another thread.
After Monday how many comments have we seen along the lines of "Just fkking nuke the middle east" or "We should bomb the st out of Libya"?
Some people take the view "They killed our kids so let's kill them" and whilst it's only a tiny minority who think that way if they had the chance do you think they'd press the button and do it?
See any parallels?
It doesn't excuse it in any way shape or form but it seems a bit simplistic to say our actions overseas have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Agree. The hatred we all feel for the terrible atrocity, is exactly the same hatred "they" feel when we cause some collateral damage. Do we ever shed a tear for the innocents killed in Iraq / Afghanistan, etc?After Monday how many comments have we seen along the lines of "Just f
kking nuke the middle east" or "We should bomb the st out of Libya"?Some people take the view "They killed our kids so let's kill them" and whilst it's only a tiny minority who think that way if they had the chance do you think they'd press the button and do it?
See any parallels?
It doesn't excuse it in any way shape or form but it seems a bit simplistic to say our actions overseas have absolutely nothing to do with it.
WestyCarl said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: Something I said on another thread.
After Monday how many comments have we seen along the lines of "Just fkking nuke the middle east" or "We should bomb the st out of Libya"?
Some people take the view "They killed our kids so let's kill them" and whilst it's only a tiny minority who think that way if they had the chance do you think they'd press the button and do it?
See any parallels?
It doesn't excuse it in any way shape or form but it seems a bit simplistic to say our actions overseas have absolutely nothing to do with it.
Agree. The hatred we all feel for the terrible atrocity, is exactly the same hatred "they" feel when we cause some collateral damage. Do we ever shed a tear for the innocents killed in Iraq / Afghanistan, etc?After Monday how many comments have we seen along the lines of "Just f
kking nuke the middle east" or "We should bomb the st out of Libya"?Some people take the view "They killed our kids so let's kill them" and whilst it's only a tiny minority who think that way if they had the chance do you think they'd press the button and do it?
See any parallels?
It doesn't excuse it in any way shape or form but it seems a bit simplistic to say our actions overseas have absolutely nothing to do with it.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:Pan Pan Pan said:
Corbyns comments regarding the bombing in Manchester, show two things. 1. He is an apologist for terrorists, carrying out attacks against the UK, trying to find ways of blaming the UK for what happened on Monday, and in previous attacks, like the one at Westminster only a few weeks ago.
Something I said on another thread.After Monday how many comments have we seen along the lines of "Just f
kking nuke the middle east" or "We should bomb the st out of Libya"?Some people take the view "They killed our kids so let's kill them" and whilst it's only a tiny minority who think that way if they had the chance do you think they'd press the button and do it?
See any parallels?
It doesn't excuse it in any way shape or form but it seems a bit simplistic to say our actions overseas have absolutely nothing to do with it.
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