Foreign policy and terrorism in UK - any connection?

[Alpinestars]

gadgetmac said:

He has a basic problem undestanding the difference between ISIS and the Individual Terrorist and his personal motivations. I fear we're on a losing wicket.

I don't think this is the problem. He has preconceived ideas that he can't move away from.

[s2art]

gadgetmac said:

Alpinestars said:

s2art said:

Alpinestars said:

s2art said:

gadgetmac said:

Alpinestars said:

You haven't read the 6 reasons they give then? I can quote them again if you want.

Notwithstanding that, individuals act as individual's. You can join a "club" and we can all have different reasons for joining that club. The club's mission statement is not always the reason we join.

Why are you ignoring the terrorists themselves. Do you know their motivations better than they did/do? Or don't they fit your narrative?

Exactly. While some people continue to put there own agenda into the terrorists actions rather than listening to the arguments attrocities will continue ad infinitum - and to both sides.

And until some people recognise that foreign policy is secondary to what motivates ISIS we will never have a good policy for dealing with them.

So now it does have something to do with it?

What motivates ISIS and what motivates individual terrorists can be different reasons. And that's demonstrably the case. But you want to ignore it.

Sure AQ have differing motivations then ISIS, but the recent spate of terrorist attacks, all over Europe, have been ISIS inspired. (as far as we can tell)

Sorry, but you're still not addressing the point. ISIS do not own the people. The people can have different motivations to ISIS. In any case, they both state foreign policy as reasons for terrorism.

I really can't make it any simpler.

He has a basic problem undestanding the difference between ISIS and the Individual Terrorist and his personal motivations. I fear we're on a losing wicket.

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

[Alpinestars]

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

I'm sure you know better than the terrorists and ISIS. I bow to your superior knowledge.

[gadgetmac]

Alpinestars said:

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

I'm sure you know better than the terrorists and ISIS. I bow to your superior knowledge.

Ye gods.

[rscott]

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

And what do you think is a contributing factor in persuading people to join that cult.

Here's a clue -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

[edh]

Key ME foreign policy has been slavish support of House of Saud for many years...following the US lead (our policies have been pretty much one & the same I think)

Saudis export and fund Wahabi doctrines across the globe (they would rather their extremists aren't agitating & destabilising their own country). That's a major root cause for ISIS/AQ etc.. Islamic terrorism

At times our foreign policy also supports these terrorists (or "freedom fighters")

Other times through our disastrous military interventions we destroy nations leaving a vacuum for the terrorists to gain significant strength.

All that is even before we consider our more direct role in killing hundreds of thousands in the ME

[Deptford Draylons]

rscott said:

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

And what do you think is a contributing factor in persuading people to join that cult.

Here's a clue -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

You missed step one out.
Q. What does it take to kill or suicide attack as a Brit for people in a far away land on the scale that we are seeing now?
A. Religion. Near exclusively the Islamic one.

[gadgetmac]

rscott said:

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

And what do you think is a contributing factor in persuading people to join that cult.

Here's a clue -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

44 Children in the last month killed by US air strikes alone. No wonder they think we're the terrorists.

[gadgetmac]

Deptford Draylons said:

You missed step one out.
Q. What does it take to kill or suicide attack as a Brit for people in a far away land on the scale that we are seeing now?
A. Religion. Near exclusively the Islamic one.

1. These are not in a far away land they are usually home grown and/or returning from the ME

2. What does it take to kill..? We have a whole war machine to do it for us. You can sit in an office and direct drone strikes on whole villages whilst munching on your lunchtime sandwich and supping your skinny latte - and whilst employed by the Govt to do so. Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

[Alpinestars]

gadgetmac said:

rscott said:

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

And what do you think is a contributing factor in persuading people to join that cult.

Here's a clue -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

44 Children in the last month killed by US air strikes alone. No wonder they think we're the terrorists.

But that's not terrorism. It's collateral damage. I doubt the families and friends of those killed think the same way though.

[Deptford Draylons]

gadgetmac said:

Deptford Draylons said:

You missed step one out.
Q. What does it take to kill or suicide attack as a Brit for people in a far away land on the scale that we are seeing now?
A. Religion. Near exclusively the Islamic one.

1. These are not in a far away land they are usually home grown and/or returning from the ME

2. What does it take to kill..? We have a whole war machine to do it for us. You can sit in an office and direct drone strikes on whole villages whilst munching on your lunchtime sandwich and supping your skinny latte - and whilst employed by the Govt to do so. Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

Not sure you understood, probably willfully given your reply.
You need religion first to say you are going to kill yourself because of whats happened to other people who you share a religion with in a far away land. That's the first step on this road of st. Brits brought up on this religion from day one by stupid parents, or going from not giving a toss about anything, to finding religion later and then killing because of Brother Muslim in some other country.

[Alpinestars]

Deptford Draylons said:

Not sure you understood, probably willfully given your reply.
You need religion first to say you are going to kill yourself because of whats happened to other people who you share a religion with in a far away land. That's the first step on this road of st. Brits brought up on this religion from day one by stupid parents, or going from not giving a toss about anything, to finding religion later and then killing because of Brother Muslim in some other country.

So ban all religions? And that would stop all killings?

[Einion Yrth]

Alpinestars said:

So ban all religions? And that would stop all killings?

Nope, the non-existence of religions might help a bit, although humans being humans would always find ways of being 2@s to one another; banning religion has been tried and really only makes things worse.

[Deptford Draylons]

Alpinestars said:

Deptford Draylons said:

Not sure you understood, probably willfully given your reply.
You need religion first to say you are going to kill yourself because of whats happened to other people who you share a religion with in a far away land. That's the first step on this road of st. Brits brought up on this religion from day one by stupid parents, or going from not giving a toss about anything, to finding religion later and then killing because of Brother Muslim in some other country.

So ban all religions? And that would stop all killings?

Why reply with such a silly exaggerated interpretation ? You can't ban it, but I wouldn't have faith schools and state sponsored division to push this st into kids heads while they are still soft. Sadly one of the things May is keen on doing.

People were overly keen to listen to suicide bombers, seemingly only so when they say it is foreign policy to blame, but write them off along with the terrorist organisation they prescribe to when they don't say its foreign policy.
Of course it plays a part, but first you have to find religion in order to go walk in to a pop concert and kill little girls on the scale its happening. The problem being everyone has an issue with acknowledging its near exclusively one religion and one group of people doing this stuff, but people here seem overly keen on trying to find excuses to spread it around a bit and lessen the impact as if they are doing some steering work in doing so, much like the same people who object to the Prevent program because it targets that one group.

[del mar]

rscott said:

s2art said:

And wrong again. It requires a very special mindset to blow yourself and some innocents up. You dont get that mindset by being upset about foreign policy. You get it by believing absolutely in a particular cause, in this case what is effectively a death cult. (and the absolute belief that Allah looks very fondly on martyrs)

And what do you think is a contributing factor in persuading people to join that cult.

Here's a clue -
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-eas...

Being brainwashed by your parents from the age of 6 or so ? How you interpret the writings of the cult is up to you.

Yes innocents have died in Iraq / Syria / Afghanistan, but I am not sure why that has a huge effect on a person born and raised in the UK who has never been to any of these places?

[gothatway]

gadgetmac said:

Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

Got me wondering ... why suicide missions ? Would it have been that difficult to leave an unattended and un-noticed bag in the foyer of the concert venue ? Are suicide missions a peculiarity of ISIS/Muslim-inspired terrorists - I don't recall them being a feature in IRA campaigns for example. Is it really the 72 virgins guff ?

[Einion Yrth]

gothatway said:

gadgetmac said:

Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

Got me wondering ... why suicide missions ? Would it have been that difficult to leave an unattended and un-noticed bag in the foyer of the concert venue ? Are suicide missions a peculiarity of ISIS/Muslim-inspired terrorists - I don't recall them being a feature in IRA campaigns for example. Is it really the 72 virgins guff ?

If IRA men blew themselves up, it was accidental, this current crop do it deliberately, and yes I think it's the prospect of glorious martyrdom (with or without varying numbers of virgins or white grapes) that makes it possible.

[Alpinestars]

Einion Yrth said:

gothatway said:

gadgetmac said:

Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

Got me wondering ... why suicide missions ? Would it have been that difficult to leave an unattended and un-noticed bag in the foyer of the concert venue ? Are suicide missions a peculiarity of ISIS/Muslim-inspired terrorists - I don't recall them being a feature in IRA campaigns for example. Is it really the 72 virgins guff ?

If IRA men blew themselves up, it was accidental, this current crop do it deliberately, and yes I think it's the prospect of glorious martyrdom (with or without varying numbers of virgins or white grapes) that makes it possible.

It makes it very dangerous and hard to fight. Someone who has no thought for his own life, isn't going to value anyone else's.

[Einion Yrth]

Alpinestars said:

Einion Yrth said:

gothatway said:

gadgetmac said:

Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

Got me wondering ... why suicide missions ? Would it have been that difficult to leave an unattended and un-noticed bag in the foyer of the concert venue ? Are suicide missions a peculiarity of ISIS/Muslim-inspired terrorists - I don't recall them being a feature in IRA campaigns for example. Is it really the 72 virgins guff ?

If IRA men blew themselves up, it was accidental, this current crop do it deliberately, and yes I think it's the prospect of glorious martyrdom (with or without varying numbers of virgins or white grapes) that makes it possible.

It makes it very dangerous and hard to fight. Someone who has no thought for his own life, isn't going to value anyone else's.

On that I cannot disagree ( you manc bd)

[gothatway]

Alpinestars said:

Einion Yrth said:

gothatway said:

gadgetmac said:

Suicide missions are for those with switches bought from Maplins.

Got me wondering ... why suicide missions ? Would it have been that difficult to leave an unattended and un-noticed bag in the foyer of the concert venue ? Are suicide missions a peculiarity of ISIS/Muslim-inspired terrorists - I don't recall them being a feature in IRA campaigns for example. Is it really the 72 virgins guff ?

If IRA men blew themselves up, it was accidental, this current crop do it deliberately, and yes I think it's the prospect of glorious martyrdom (with or without varying numbers of virgins or white grapes) that makes it possible.

It makes it very dangerous and hard to fight. Someone who has no thought for his own life, isn't going to value anyone else's.

Yes yes yes, but how did they get to that point - just brain-washing under the guise of religion? I noted that an expert view was that the sophistication of the Manchester device indicated that it could be set off remotely if the mule chickened out. You'd have thought that would have affected the behaviour of any thinking being. Answered my own question, I guess.