Huge Fire In Block Of Flats
Discussion
It's the regs and the test methods required to comply that are at fault.
A flame a set distance away from the external surface of these cladding systems isn't representative of a real fire.
Having lit up kingspan quite easily while blowtorching copper pipe fittings the fact it has a foil face is irrelevant when the cut edges are open and uncovered. Same goes for any of these cladding systems. Fire starts in the 'wrong' place and the tests and approvals are immediately pointless.
I reckon, as an amateur, that the vertically battened air gap between rainscreen and insulation is the biggest cause of fire spread as it's basically a chimney.
A flame a set distance away from the external surface of these cladding systems isn't representative of a real fire.
Having lit up kingspan quite easily while blowtorching copper pipe fittings the fact it has a foil face is irrelevant when the cut edges are open and uncovered. Same goes for any of these cladding systems. Fire starts in the 'wrong' place and the tests and approvals are immediately pointless.
I reckon, as an amateur, that the vertically battened air gap between rainscreen and insulation is the biggest cause of fire spread as it's basically a chimney.
gooner1 said:
JPJPJP said:
This whole episode will, hopefully, make people think longer and harder about their abilities before standing as Councillor
Perhaps horrific scenarios , like this, should never come under a Counci/Councilors remit at all.
I say this politely of course
, and not personal, just debating...but I think that's nonsense.Leadership through a crisis doesn't require a cape or a special skill set. But coolness under pressure, the ability to communicate, the ability to quickly enumerate and assess the various issues and subsequently prioritise, then enact the activities....these are just some of the fundamental thought processes anyone can follow when faced with a crisis.
Now your average council should have a Gold Command plan/brief etc when something happens. Like any business. Any organisation. So to say councils shouldn't have the responsibility isn't right, because evidently many plan - poorly however - for the odd eventuality.
One issue is that whilst the majority of councillors up and down the country want to get elected to represent their ward and represent their interests as best they can, some of those who strive for a cabinet post tend to show more venal qualities. They want the extra - it's not a lot in the scheme of things - pay, they want to formulate council strategy, they want the title, they want a shot at mayor, or leader of the council. In short, even in local politics, there are some who forget why they are there and just like the power.
And when things go wrong, they go missing. Like Rock Feilding-Mellen. So as Deputy in charge of Housing, Planning and the ultimate authority on the Grenfell transformation plan, this is a guy who's happy to write editorials and articles for all the Tory magazines and papers emitting his thoughts on wide scale social housing programmes, like he's an authority, he sought the position to manage all RBKC housing etc change, he demanded the change requests to Grenfell for that measly £300k (that of a borough swimming in .25bn £ of cash).....
And Feilding-Mellen gets a pass when it comes to someone else handling things when it all goes wrong?
Nope. You get elected, you're not just there to roar platitudes or encumber partisan interests, you're also there to show leadership for your residents in difficult times. And as for those paid even more - the executives like Holgate - I've made it plain and clear in an earlier post.
And if you're that councillor who's experiencing a light aircraft falling on a school, or a gas explosion near a hospital, or a Grenfell....sure....your stomach is churning like any normal human being. You're worried sick. Fear is challenging you from opening the door and facing the press. You have no super powers. But you show some flaming backbone and you get up and started. Remember your residents are looking at you for support, for help, for leadership.
They want communication. They want an understanding of how order will come back. And if that's not you, then don't seek a leadership position. Don't seek a election for a political position where people look to you in times of need. Go away and stack shelves in Tesco.
Reports today that at least one Grenfell resident has just gotten access to their bank account to discover the rent payment has still been taken.
Something described on R4 by an RBKC councillor as "a little thing" ! They even said the person will have a designated contact at the council so it'll be sorted.
What they should have announced was that immediate action would be taken to freeze any other payments from other tenants and that any who had made payments would be refunded.
It's another sign of the completely disorganized response by the council.
One positive move - London Councils have worked with the parking department and DVLA to prevent any vehicles registered at Grenfell from receiving any parking tickets for the foreseeable future.
I'm aware that Sky managed to identify all customer accounts of Grenfell residents and have taken action to ensure they're not being charged and their mobile accounts remain available to them. They managed that in a couple of working days.
Something described on R4 by an RBKC councillor as "a little thing" ! They even said the person will have a designated contact at the council so it'll be sorted.
What they should have announced was that immediate action would be taken to freeze any other payments from other tenants and that any who had made payments would be refunded.
It's another sign of the completely disorganized response by the council.
One positive move - London Councils have worked with the parking department and DVLA to prevent any vehicles registered at Grenfell from receiving any parking tickets for the foreseeable future.
I'm aware that Sky managed to identify all customer accounts of Grenfell residents and have taken action to ensure they're not being charged and their mobile accounts remain available to them. They managed that in a couple of working days.
rscott said:
Reports today that at least one Grenfell resident has just gotten access to their bank account to discover the rent payment has still been taken.
Something described on R4 by an RBKC councillor as "a little thing" ! They even said the person will have a designated contact at the council so it'll be sorted.
What they should have announced was that immediate action would be taken to freeze any other payments from other tenants and that any who had made payments would be refunded.
It's another sign of the completely disorganized response by the council.
One positive move - London Councils have worked with the parking department and DVLA to prevent any vehicles registered at Grenfell from receiving any parking tickets for the foreseeable future.
I'm aware that Sky managed to identify all customer accounts of Grenfell residents and have taken action to ensure they're not being charged and their mobile accounts remain available to them. They managed that in a couple of working days.
And I daresay Council Tax will still be taken.Something described on R4 by an RBKC councillor as "a little thing" ! They even said the person will have a designated contact at the council so it'll be sorted.
What they should have announced was that immediate action would be taken to freeze any other payments from other tenants and that any who had made payments would be refunded.
It's another sign of the completely disorganized response by the council.
One positive move - London Councils have worked with the parking department and DVLA to prevent any vehicles registered at Grenfell from receiving any parking tickets for the foreseeable future.
I'm aware that Sky managed to identify all customer accounts of Grenfell residents and have taken action to ensure they're not being charged and their mobile accounts remain available to them. They managed that in a couple of working days.
Glade said:
Newsnight have copies of reports from Exova that state that higher grade acl would behave the same as ceramic tile for surface flame spread. I think they said these were comissionned by Kingspan for some Unite students flats in portsmouth.
Newsnight inferred this would have given the building inspectors the green light to sign off the combination.
I don't think Exova will be technically wrong. Newsnight man says that acl doesn't perform like this in a fire... It sounds like Exova are talking about surface flame spread, no doubt under specified conditions which doesn't seem like the same thing.
An unrepresentative test method has been used?
The guy on newsnight, and the technical brochure from kingspan, both say that this was a desktop study.Newsnight inferred this would have given the building inspectors the green light to sign off the combination.
I don't think Exova will be technically wrong. Newsnight man says that acl doesn't perform like this in a fire... It sounds like Exova are talking about surface flame spread, no doubt under specified conditions which doesn't seem like the same thing.
An unrepresentative test method has been used?
Essentially, kingspan, wanting to sell combustible insulation, realised that anyone using it would need to demonstrate a pass of a BS8414 fire test, or a desktop study stating that it would pass. By commissioning a bunch of tests and desktop studies, customers wanting to use their product have an idea of the sorts of construction which would be acceptable.
Kingspan list this particular desktop study as using "FR grade ACM". If you look at most fire-resistant grades of ACM intended for tall buildings, then they consist of a ceramic/mineral fibre core with aluminium facing.
Because of the variability in materials, I would have been surprised if an exact product was specified for the purposes of the desktop study. Unfortunately, we don't know what that exact product was. However, if the exact product was one of these mineral cored panels, then the statement that the panel would behave "the same as ceramic tile for surface flame spread" is probably a very reasonable opinion.
Of course, there is the possibility that the expert opinion is dodgy, but this seems rather unlikely. What I suspect is more likely is inexpert people re-publishing BS8414 test data and/or desktop studies, and other inexpert people using these beyond their intended scope.
For example, the RS5000 insulation at Grenfell had a BS8414 pass when coupled with a cement rainscreen. However, the rainscreen was listed in the RS5000 technical datasheet as "class 0 rainscreen". This is a useless description, but it may not be obvious that this is useless unless you have a reasonably deep understanding of fire safety. At the same time, a prospective customer might see the document saying "class 0 rainscreen" and procure the Reynobond PE which is indeed "class 0", again, not understanding the system in adequate depth to realise what they are doing. At the same time, a buildings inspector could conceivably be misled by this type of specification.
kev1974 said:
None of it should have been left to the council. It's obvious from the start that RBK&C don't have a clue how to handle this, why would they, their day to day stuff is housing a few families a day, emptying bins on Exhibition Road, making street lights work in Holland Park. I'm not surprised he's thrown in the towel, and I very much doubt they'll find anyone else willing to step into his place.
This was always too big for any London borough council, there should have been a crisis management task force in place before 10am the morning after.
Emergency support to a major incident is their job though. That is one of their prescribed functions.This was always too big for any London borough council, there should have been a crisis management task force in place before 10am the morning after.
I've worked with other councils in emergency response and have been impressed by what they do, the speed of organisation and the forethought in subsystem planning. There is no other group with the resources available to deal with such matters unless the situation is catastrophically big, with numbers in many hundreds. If the reports of their lack of response are true then they are culpable, not only for their immediate actions but for their lack of planning.
As someone who has worked with councils fairly regularly I'm stunned by the reports, and this from a rich council. There would appear to be few excuses available to them.
tigerkoi said:
Basically, whole cohorts of management staff in public sector are weak.
^This.Ive found myself, through an intermediary, carrying out EICRs (electrical checks) and remedials for a housing association. Their attitude is terrible, none of what they do makes sense - one day your recommended c3 faults (advisory, most landlords ignore) are actioned, another they ignore urgent issues. They often seem more intersted in playing games with contracters - wasting time for the "enemy contractors" as a lot of this stuff has gone out-of-house recently, such as being awkward with keys, unfair callbacks and nitpicking faults, this has just me more predatory with my pricing so my ass is covered so they end up paying more. Many of their properties have 30+ year old electrical installations that have never seen a proper test - I can tell this by the types of faults and wiring issues - including ones with several test stickers on the consumer unit! Some work has been done by bandits, another job they had me installing pyro cabling - fireproof cable thats pretty much unnecessary and massively time consuming to install- think 3 times more expensive than necessary. But someone specced it for god knows what reason. It makes them feel important. Another job I carry out an EICR on a property thats in the middle of a refurb with elcetrical work being carried out, thus completely nullifying the test results before I've completed the cert...
Nothing makes any sense at all, it all seems completely arbitrary, I work for cheapskate landlords in the private sector but at least you know exactly where you stand and what they want. Big organisation's in the private sector can be bad but theres usually a direction - public authorities and the non-profit organisations that have superceded much of their remit just seem to be trying to pull in every direction at once and the result is they just burn through money whether or not outside contractors are helping themselves to it - in fact the politics are so bad they tend to attract contractors whose sole interest is making as much cash as they can I think.
JPJPJP said:
This whole episode will, hopefully, make people think longer and harder about their abilities before standing as Councillor
Respectfully and not a go at you but... You have to be f
king joking. Some of the total fkups that do stand are a joke as in a total joke. We have them here. My brother lives near to Blackpool and whilst it isn't his council it seems that in Blackpool the main advantage you need to be a councillor is to be related to one. One old gizzard there is so much of a pig in the trough it's unreal. He was on a housing committee and was in charge of clamping down on housing benefit fraud. Thing was his daughter was caught 3 times robbing housing benefit. the last time did for him and he had to step down. as in step down from the housing committee. It also cost him leader of the council. then a new boy came in and because he had been tutored by the old git he rewarded him with a brief on education. he decided it must be beneficial to start hammering parents whose kids had time off school - very noble. Only thing was his daughter apart from robbing the housing benefit was such a f
k up she didn't bother getting her daughter to attend she had at best a 62% attendance record and for one term managed a stonking 4%,It was thought it would be best if he was off that education brief thingey
so they gave him health
plasticpig said:
Is that the stuff made from basalt fibre?
It's basically the same as this,http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/hardrock-multi-...
Check the fire rating, similiar to most, if not all Rockwall products.
I currently have 110 blokes, and most of the Cherry Pickers in England on hire ripping cladding off.
The spineless b
ds won't listenMe " It's Rockwall Sir"
Spineless HA/Council t
t. " We don't care, get it off!"Toilet roll sales near council/HA offices must be through the roof !
Eddieslofart said:
It's basically the same as this,
http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/hardrock-multi-...
Check the fire rating, similiar to most, if not all Rockwall products.
I currently have 110 blokes, and most of the Cherry Pickers in England on hire ripping cladding off.
The spineless bds won't listen
Me " It's Rockwall Sir"
Spineless HA/Council tt. " We don't care, get it off!"
Toilet roll sales near council/HA offices must be through the roof !
Thought so. I was speaking to building manager (commercial) the other day who had to arrange a demonstration for worried tennants. They got a piece of a panel and played a butane torch over it.... http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/hardrock-multi-...
Check the fire rating, similiar to most, if not all Rockwall products.
I currently have 110 blokes, and most of the Cherry Pickers in England on hire ripping cladding off.
The spineless b
ds won't listenMe " It's Rockwall Sir"
Spineless HA/Council t
t. " We don't care, get it off!"Toilet roll sales near council/HA offices must be through the roof !
Eddieslofart said:
plasticpig said:
Is that the stuff made from basalt fibre?
It's basically the same as this,http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/hardrock-multi-...
Check the fire rating, similiar to most, if not all Rockwall products.
I currently have 110 blokes, and most of the Cherry Pickers in England on hire ripping cladding off.
The spineless b
ds won't listenMe " It's Rockwall Sir"
Spineless HA/Council t
t. " We don't care, get it off!"Toilet roll sales near council/HA offices must be through the roof !
techiedave said:
Respectfully and not a go at you but... You have to be fking joking. Some of the total fkups that do stand are a joke as in a total joke. We have them here. My brother lives near to Blackpool and whilst it isn't his council it seems that in Blackpool the main advantage you need to be a councillor is to be related to one. One old gizzard there is so much of a pig in the trough it's unreal. He was on a housing committee and was in charge of clamping down on housing benefit fraud. Thing was his daughter was caught 3 times robbing housing benefit. the last time did for him and he had to step down. as in step down from the housing committee. It also cost him leader of the council. then a new boy came in and because he had been tutored by the old git he rewarded him with a brief on education. he decided it must be beneficial to start hammering parents whose kids had time off school - very noble.
Only thing was his daughter apart from robbing the housing benefit was such a fk up she didn't bother getting her daughter to attend she had at best a 62% attendance record and for one term managed a stonking 4%,
It was thought it would be best if he was off that education brief thingey
so they gave him health
You forgot the end of that story, the bit where his grandson became one tooking joking. Some of the total fkups that do stand are a joke as in a total joke. We have them here. My brother lives near to Blackpool and whilst it isn't his council it seems that in Blackpool the main advantage you need to be a councillor is to be related to one. One old gizzard there is so much of a pig in the trough it's unreal. He was on a housing committee and was in charge of clamping down on housing benefit fraud. Thing was his daughter was caught 3 times robbing housing benefit. the last time did for him and he had to step down. as in step down from the housing committee. It also cost him leader of the council. then a new boy came in and because he had been tutored by the old git he rewarded him with a brief on education. he decided it must be beneficial to start hammering parents whose kids had time off school - very noble. Only thing was his daughter apart from robbing the housing benefit was such a f
k up she didn't bother getting her daughter to attend she had at best a 62% attendance record and for one term managed a stonking 4%,It was thought it would be best if he was off that education brief thingey
so they gave him health
Elysium said:
Eddieslofart said:
plasticpig said:
Is that the stuff made from basalt fibre?
It's basically the same as this,http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/hardrock-multi-...
Check the fire rating, similiar to most, if not all Rockwall products.
I currently have 110 blokes, and most of the Cherry Pickers in England on hire ripping cladding off.
The spineless b
ds won't listenMe " It's Rockwall Sir"
Spineless HA/Council t
t. " We don't care, get it off!"Toilet roll sales near council/HA offices must be through the roof !
Or is it just multiple samples for test?
economicpygmy said:
Elysium said:
Eddieslofart said:
plasticpig said:
Is that the stuff made from basalt fibre?
It's basically the same as this,http://www.rockwool.co.uk/products/hardrock-multi-...
Check the fire rating, similiar to most, if not all Rockwall products.
I currently have 110 blokes, and most of the Cherry Pickers in England on hire ripping cladding off.
The spineless b
ds won't listenMe " It's Rockwall Sir"
Spineless HA/Council t
t. " We don't care, get it off!"Toilet roll sales near council/HA offices must be through the roof !
Or is it just multiple samples for test?
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