Huge Fire In Block Of Flats

[The Surveyor]

JagLover said:

The enquiry will establish the full facts. What seems very likely from all the media reports I have read is that many of the residents died after receiving an instruction to stay put.

This is the responsibility of senior fire officers so is not a criticism of the brave fire fighters who risked their lives.

It is entirely right that anyone who was at fault should be held accountable.

The senior officers and the call handlers get their information on how the fire is behaving from those fire-fighters tackling the fire, That communication clearly failed despite there being quite a bit of time available from when the fire was first noted travelling up the outside.

The media reports may be factually correct in that the residents died after the message was given to stay in their flats, but what we don't know is whether they would have survived attempting to escape via the stair lobby which was reported to be full of toxic smoke. Without knowing all the timings in detail, it's 'possible' that their fate was already sealed by the fire spreading both internally and externally, and that once the fire was established and the crews realised this wasn't a 'normal' fire, they were never going to be able to escape. That report earlier mentioned that one of the stair-well fire doors was wedged open by a body whilst the fire-crews were still trying to tackle the fire from the pitch-black smoke-logged stair well, sadly you're just not going to get dozens of frightened residents down a stair in those conditions.

[p1stonhead]

dickymint said:

lemmingjames said:

All the retro fitting of all the fire safety measures you are suggesting that should have been implemented but alas there was no funding for it and at the time, the fire plan was suitable that it didnt need it.

I dont suppose anybody knew that the cladding would have reacted the way it did and therefore a new plan would have been required.

Though in your infinite wisdom and expertise, given the floor plans for Grenfall are available, where would you retrofit a firefighters lift in?

On the outside of the building?

So put the firefighting lift IN the fire itself.

[bitchstewie]

p1stonhead said:

A firefighter on the radio said in his 25 years of fighting fires, 99 times out of 100 the stay put policy is the right one and has been the right call. How can anyone argue that what they did was wrong in such circumstances? No one could have known the building was effectively clad in something akin to a bbq firelighter.

I expect this is what the inquiry will determine.

I heard a spokesperson for the fire brigade union (I think) essentially making the point that every piece of training that firefighters receive around fires in buildings such as this is based on the assumption that containment measures will work as that's what buildings are designed and certified to do.

They apparently "simply" (I expect the reason aren't simple) weren't trained for the situation and circumstances in which they found themselves.

Try and put yourself in the shoes of the fire officers, heads and potentially hundreds of people choke to death in a stairwell, tails and you end up with that advice possibly contributing to what happened.

[V8 Fettler]

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

Why what couldn't / didn't etc happen?

All the retro fitting of all the fire safety measures you are suggesting that should have been implemented but alas there was no funding for it and at the time, the fire plan was suitable that it didnt need it.

I dont suppose anybody knew that the cladding would have reacted the way it did and therefore a new plan would have been required.

Though in your infinite wisdom and expertise, given the floor plans for Grenfall are available, where would you retrofit a firefighters lift in?

The money was there for non-safety critical cladding, which would have cost much more than a firefighters lift.

Where to fit a firefighters lift? I'm not a lift designer, but I can ask someone who is. Is not one of the existing shafts suitable?

The fire plan (fire strategy) clearly wasn't suitable, look at the end results.

[p1stonhead]

V8 Fettler said:

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

Why what couldn't / didn't etc happen?

All the retro fitting of all the fire safety measures you are suggesting that should have been implemented but alas there was no funding for it and at the time, the fire plan was suitable that it didnt need it.

I dont suppose anybody knew that the cladding would have reacted the way it did and therefore a new plan would have been required.

Though in your infinite wisdom and expertise, given the floor plans for Grenfall are available, where would you retrofit a firefighters lift in?

The money was there for non-safety critical cladding, which would have cost much more than a firefighters lift.

Where to fit a firefighters lift? I'm not a lift designer, but I can ask someone who is. Is not one of the existing shafts suitable?

The fire plan (fire strategy) clearly wasn't suitable, look at the end results.

Its not just a lift, its a dry riser, distribution pipework etc etc.

A fair amount of retro-fit work in hundreds if not thousands of buildings.

Arguably the fire strategy was fine before the cladding was put on. No one knew the cladding would be so combustible so they probably didn't change the fire plan after it was installed. This is the real scandal.

[V8 Fettler]

p1stonhead said:

V8 Fettler said:

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

Why what couldn't / didn't etc happen?

All the retro fitting of all the fire safety measures you are suggesting that should have been implemented but alas there was no funding for it and at the time, the fire plan was suitable that it didnt need it.

I dont suppose anybody knew that the cladding would have reacted the way it did and therefore a new plan would have been required.

Though in your infinite wisdom and expertise, given the floor plans for Grenfall are available, where would you retrofit a firefighters lift in?

The money was there for non-safety critical cladding, which would have cost much more than a firefighters lift.

Where to fit a firefighters lift? I'm not a lift designer, but I can ask someone who is. Is not one of the existing shafts suitable?

The fire plan (fire strategy) clearly wasn't suitable, look at the end results.

Its not just a lift, its a dry riser, distribution pipework etc etc.

A fair amount of retro-fit work in hundreds if not thousands of buildings.

Arguably the fire strategy was fine before the cladding was put on. No one knew the cladding would be so combustible so they probably didn't change the fire plan after it was installed. This is the real scandal.

Grenfell had a dry riser, Lane had some comments. The combustible cladding overwhelms all other issues, plenty of blocks in the UK with defective fire doors, breaks in fire barriers, lifts that are not firefighters lifts etc, but if the exterior doesn't burn then the firefighters (eventually) quench the fire before the block is destroyed.

[dickymint]

p1stonhead said:

dickymint said:

lemmingjames said:

All the retro fitting of all the fire safety measures you are suggesting that should have been implemented but alas there was no funding for it and at the time, the fire plan was suitable that it didnt need it.

I dont suppose anybody knew that the cladding would have reacted the way it did and therefore a new plan would have been required.

Though in your infinite wisdom and expertise, given the floor plans for Grenfall are available, where would you retrofit a firefighters lift in?

On the outside of the building?

So put the firefighting lift IN the fire itself.

Don’t be so daft you know exactly what I was alluding to.

[V8 Fettler]

[Mark300zx]

The trouble with telling everyone to evacuate if there is a fire is that you potentially get several hundred using a single staircase at the same time. These are all ages, sizes and disabilities, if one falls they block the whole staircase, stop everyones exit and the firefighters' ingress.

A very difficult call to make, and one that will be at the centre of the nightmares that those senior officers will have!

[anonymous-user]

Mark300zx said:

The trouble with telling everyone to evacuate if there is a fire is that you potentially get several hundred using a single staircase at the same time. These are all ages, sizes and disabilities, if one falls they block the whole staircase, stop everyones exit and the firefighters' ingress.

A very difficult call to make, and one that will be at the centre of the nightmares that those senior officers will have!

Also consider two things:

1) when panic'd, how long do you think the average person can hold their breath for?

2) how long do you think it will take to get from a flat on anything but the first couple of floors to ground level, especially when doing it blind in thick smoke?


Those two basic questions (and the aforementioned risk of hurting people in panic rushes when there is a false alarm) and there rather obvious answer is why the "stay put" mantra exists, and in 99.99% of cases works.

[saaby93]

V8 Fettler said:

Grenfell had a dry riser, Lane had some comments. The combustible cladding overwhelms all other issues, plenty of blocks in the UK with defective fire doors, breaks in fire barriers, lifts that are not firefighters lifts etc, but if the exterior doesn't burn then the firefighters (eventually) quench the fire before the block is destroyed.

Surely it wasnt the combustible cladding that overwhelmed the issues. As said earlier the building was supposed to be fireproof concrete so any fire in the cladding should have stayed on the outside and the stay put strategy would have worked too.
The problem is somehow the fire managed to get inside so many flats

[Mark300zx]

saaby93 said:

Surely it wasnt the combustible cladding that overwhelmed the issues. As said earlier the building was supposed to be fireproof concrete so any fire in the cladding should have stayed on the outside and the stay put strategy would have worked too.
The problem is somehow the fire managed to get inside so many flats

People open their windows, and as highlighted earlier the windows were moved outward from the original positions, also the temps were probably circa1000 degrees.

[stuttgartmetal]

I was under the impression that the cladding catching fire wasn't the issue.
I thought the plastic deformed, causing a venturi between the cladding and the building.
If the cladding caught fire, the venturi effect would have ceased.

Edited by stuttgartmetal on Thursday 7th June 23:31

[saaby93]

There is the insulation between the building and the cladding too
All of it outside the fireproof box made of concrete

[Mark300zx]

stuttgartmetal said:

I was under the impression that the cladding catching fire was the issue.
I thought the plastic deformed, causing a venturi between the cladding and the building.
If the cladding caught fire, the venturi effect would have ceased.

I don't know about the venturi effect, but the cladding was allegedly applied and created unrestricted shafts on the outside of the building and that is undesirable on a high rise structure.

[stuttgartmetal]

Mark300zx said:

stuttgartmetal said:

I was under the impression that the cladding catching fire was the issue.
I thought the plastic deformed, causing a venturi between the cladding and the building.
If the cladding caught fire, the venturi effect would have ceased.

I don't know about the venturi effect, but the cladding was allegedly applied and created unrestricted shafts on the outside of the building and that is undesirable on a high rise structure.

Ive edited my original post.

I thought the fire cladding catching fire WASNT the issue, and that the hot plastic deformed causing a gap between the building and the cladding.
The cladding should have had fire "breaks" bbetween the panels, to stop these air tubes being formed.
Air rushing past or into a fire rapidly enrages it because of the high volume of oxygen .
That's why the building looked like an enormous firework.

[lemmingjames]

V8 Fettler said:

The money was there for non-safety critical cladding, which would have cost much more than a firefighters lift.

Where to fit a firefighters lift? I'm not a lift designer, but I can ask someone who is. Is not one of the existing shafts suitable?

The fire plan (fire strategy) clearly wasn't suitable, look at the end results.

You tell us, your seem to be the self appointed expert in this. It's not hard to look at a floor plan, given your experience and say I'd put a firemans lift here. You don't need to be a designer for this simple space planning exercise.

So given a finite budget, if you put it to the residents that they could either have a fire fighters lift retrofitted at possibly the expense of families being evicted or cladding that will keep them warmer, what do you think they would chose?

[lemmingjames]

V8 Fettler said:

So your suggestion is to retrofit a lift like this? How long and how much do you think it would cost to build this?

[Mark300zx]

stuttgartmetal said:

Ive edited my original post.

I thought the fire cladding catching fire WASNT the issue, and that the hot plastic deformed causing a gap between the building and the cladding.
The cladding should have had fire "breaks" bbetween the panels, to stop these air tubes being formed.
Air rushing past or into a fire rapidly enrages it because of the high volume of oxygen .
That's why the building looked like an enormous firework.

Are you asking me or telling me?

[saaby93]

Also it looking like a firework shouldnt have been a problem - other clad buildings have caught fire but the fire didnt get inside