Huge Fire In Block Of Flats

[Mark300zx]

saaby93 said:

Also it looking like a firework shouldnt have been a problem - other clad buildings have caught fire but the fire didnt get inside

Just wondering if you have any fire-related qualifications?

[V8 Fettler]

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

The money was there for non-safety critical cladding, which would have cost much more than a firefighters lift.

Where to fit a firefighters lift? I'm not a lift designer, but I can ask someone who is. Is not one of the existing shafts suitable?

The fire plan (fire strategy) clearly wasn't suitable, look at the end results.

You tell us, your seem to be the self appointed expert in this. It's not hard to look at a floor plan, given your experience and say I'd put a firemans lift here. You don't need to be a designer for this simple space planning exercise.

So given a finite budget, if you put it to the residents that they could either have a fire fighters lift retrofitted at possibly the expense of families being evicted or cladding that will keep them warmer, what do you think they would chose?

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

[V8 Fettler]

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

So your suggestion is to retrofit a lift like this? How long and how much do you think it would cost to build this?

Lifts, services and protected stairwell. It was a bit tongue in cheek, but the principle holds true. Biggest technical issues would be footprint and access to central core. The former could be a showstopper in a conjested urban location, the latter means losing flats.

[saaby93]

Mark300zx said:

saaby93 said:

Also it looking like a firework shouldnt have been a problem - other clad buildings have caught fire but the fire didnt get inside

Just wondering if you have any fire-related qualifications?

Does this help
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0yQLIlIetDM

[lemmingjames]

V8 Fettler said:

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

Theres no point in continuing 'our' chat as you seem unable to grasp some of the basics and therefore im just thinking troll

[E24man]

How many people have now been charged with fraud following the fire? Is the number approaching that of the number of victims?

[V8 Fettler]

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

Theres no point in continuing 'our' chat as you seem unable to grasp some of the basics and therefore im just thinking troll

What basics are these then?

[saaby93]

V8 Fettler said:

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

Theres no point in continuing 'our' chat as you seem unable to grasp some of the basics and therefore im just thinking troll

What basics are these then?

Easy really - the concrete building is fireproof
If one flat catches fire you dont let it spread to the stairwell or if it does not to the other flats where everyone is staying put until the fire ges out

The cladding/insulation is outside the fireproof building
If it catches fire you dont let it inside

As this poster said - the question mark is hovering over the windows

Mark300zx said:

saaby93 said:

Surely it wasnt the combustible cladding that overwhelmed the issues. As said earlier the building was supposed to be fireproof concrete so any fire in the cladding should have stayed on the outside and the stay put strategy would have worked too.
The problem is somehow the fire managed to get inside so many flats

People open their windows, and as highlighted earlier the windows were moved outward from the original positions, also the temps were probably circa1000 degrees.

[The Surveyor]

V8 Fettler said:

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

Theres no point in continuing 'our' chat as you seem unable to grasp some of the basics and therefore im just thinking troll

What basics are these then?

I think we are going round in circles, you ask questions and you don't listen to the answers but ask more questions about the same thing.

The basics are that Grenfell was an exceptional tragedy because of the cladding, not because of the lifts, the stair, the fire suppression, the fire doors, the fire fighters actions, or the residents actions. If the cladding had performed as it should, providing improved aesthetics and insulation, whilst being non-combustible with effective fire breaks and fire stopping, we wouldn't have seen the loss of life on that evening would we!

[Vipers]

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

So your suggestion is to retrofit a lift like this? How long and how much do you think it would cost to build this?

Easy, just stop giving our dosh away to other countries for despots to squander it.

But seriously there is a trade off between safety and cost. We seem to know why the tower went up like it did, remove the cladding, fix the window frames and doors and reduce the risk to as low as reasonably practicable.

[Jazzy Jag]

lemmingjames said:

So your suggestion is to retrofit a lift like this? How long and how much do you think it would cost to build this?

What value are you putting on 72 lives that could have been saved?

Seriously, though how much does an inquest cost each time one burns as well as the associated rehoming and damages costs and how long does the enquiry last?

[richie99]

lemmingjames said:

You tell us, your seem to be the self appointed expert in this. It's not hard to look at a floor plan, given your experience and say I'd put a firemans lift here. You don't need to be a designer for this simple space planning exercise.

So given a finite budget, if you put it to the residents that they could either have a fire fighters lift retrofitted at possibly the expense of families being evicted or cladding that will keep them warmer, what do you think they would chose?

In fairness the cladding was due carbon reduction targets and worshipping at the alter of man made climate change. When I lived in a high rise council flat it wasn’t cold. You just had the heating on all the time.

[98elise]

The Surveyor said:

V8 Fettler said:

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

Theres no point in continuing 'our' chat as you seem unable to grasp some of the basics and therefore im just thinking troll

What basics are these then?

I think we are going round in circles, you ask questions and you don't listen to the answers but ask more questions about the same thing.

The basics are that Grenfell was an exceptional tragedy because of the cladding, not because of the lifts, the stair, the fire suppression, the fire doors, the fire fighters actions, or the residents actions. If the cladding had performed as it should, providing improved aesthetics and insulation, whilst being non-combustible with effective fire breaks and fire stopping, we wouldn't have seen the loss of life on that evening would we!

Agreed.

You don't need a new way to escape from a cladding fire. You just need it not to burn like that in the first place.

[V8 Fettler]

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

The money was there for non-safety critical cladding, which would have cost much more than a firefighters lift.

Where to fit a firefighters lift? I'm not a lift designer, but I can ask someone who is. Is not one of the existing shafts suitable?

The fire plan (fire strategy) clearly wasn't suitable, look at the end results.

You tell us, your seem to be the self appointed expert in this. It's not hard to look at a floor plan, given your experience and say I'd put a firemans lift here. You don't need to be a designer for this simple space planning exercise.

So given a finite budget, if you put it to the residents that they could either have a fire fighters lift retrofitted at possibly the expense of families being evicted or cladding that will keep them warmer, what do you think they would chose?

A lift designer tells me that if one of the existing lifts has a carrying capacity of 8 persons or more then it is likely that it could have been replaced with a modern firefighters lift with minimal or no increase in footprint. Some drainage works required in the pit and on the landings, secondary power supply needed. For residential, a firefighting lobby is not an absolute requirement.

[V8 Fettler]

The Surveyor said:

V8 Fettler said:

lemmingjames said:

V8 Fettler said:

That approach to design is probably how the design team for the Grenfell refurb managed to design a torch waiting to be lit. What about protection for the firefighters?

Theres no point in continuing 'our' chat as you seem unable to grasp some of the basics and therefore im just thinking troll

What basics are these then?

I think we are going round in circles, you ask questions and you don't listen to the answers but ask more questions about the same thing.

The basics are that Grenfell was an exceptional tragedy because of the cladding, not because of the lifts, the stair, the fire suppression, the fire doors, the fire fighters actions, or the residents actions. If the cladding had performed as it should, providing improved aesthetics and insulation, whilst being non-combustible with effective fire breaks and fire stopping, we wouldn't have seen the loss of life on that evening would we!

Have I not already stated that the combustible cladding overwhelms all other issues?

V8 Fettler said:

Grenfell had a dry riser, Lane had some comments. The combustible cladding overwhelms all other issues, plenty of blocks in the UK with defective fire doors, breaks in fire barriers, lifts that are not firefighters lifts etc, but if the exterior doesn't burn then the firefighters (eventually) quench the fire before the block is destroyed.

Although a fully operational, code compliant firefighters lift, sufficient water and a senior fire officer with the ability to quickly identify the key issues and options does raise the possibility of fire hoses being inserted behind the cladding above the fire at an early stage.

[saaby93]

V8 Fettler said:

V8 Fettler said:

Grenfell had a dry riser, Lane had some comments. The combustible cladding overwhelms all other issues, plenty of blocks in the UK with defective fire doors, breaks in fire barriers, lifts that are not firefighters lifts etc, but if the exterior doesn't burn then the firefighters (eventually) quench the fire before the block is destroyed.

Although a fully operational, code compliant firefighters lift, sufficient water and a senior fire officer with the ability to quickly identify the key issues and options does raise the possibility of fire hoses being inserted behind the cladding above the fire at an early stage.

It's combustible cladding and combustible insulation
As has been seen in other blocks it doesnt overwhelm all other issues if that's outside the non combustible fireproof building. It just burns itself out.
Which isnt to say that less combustible materials couldnt have been used if necessary

What looks to have happened with this one, and the enquiry will let us know different, is that something else failed and the fire got into the flats.
One of those reports said the fire came through the floor - how can that happen?

[austinsmirk]

Mark300zx said:

The trouble with telling everyone to evacuate if there is a fire is that you potentially get several hundred using a single staircase at the same time. These are all ages, sizes and disabilities, if one falls they block the whole staircase, stop everyones exit and the firefighters' ingress.

A very difficult call to make, and one that will be at the centre of the nightmares that those senior officers will have!

This basically sums up the problem. Add to that people dragging all their possessions out at the same time and blocking access further too.

I cannot begin to tell you the trouble we have with tenants dragging their junk into communal areas.

The day after Grenfell I was in a block: there was a full gas bbq and 15 kg gas bottle attached in a stairwell in a block. The tenants could see no issue with this. I made them drag it outside.

What’s worse is on that block there is a mgr. who had overlooked this.

No matter what you do, you can’t help some people.

What yr all missing arguing about retro fitting lifts is all the costs, not of the lift necessarily, but the building or asset and the sense in doing it.

With these blocks:
You have void and refurb costs
Block cleaning
Cctv
Security
Day to day repairs
All fixtures and fittings are of a lifecycle so need updating at some point
Vandalism
Damage
Management and staffing costs
Lost revenue when flats are void


Add to this rents are artificially higher for such a flat verses a house or low rise unit because they’re such expensive structures: typically anyone with anything about them eg in work, won’t live in them- why? Well for less money you could rent/buy a much more attractive property.

Thus you tend to attract benefit dependent tnts. Now the huge changes to universal credit, under 35 yr rules, bedroom tax, means ( here’s the rub) except for London Town, pretty much they have little future elsewhere in the uk. They’re a dead, depreciating liability/asset. Again why? Because the benefit dependant cannot live for free in them as they once did. And that’s the majority of occupants

If anything if “we” had defective stock like Grenfell ( which we don’t) and we’re forced to invest into them, we’d drop them

The quirk is London needs them. So dead, dying stock which you don’t really want the hassle of owning needs to be suddenly impossibly utterly free of all risk

Oh and not pay for itself and be completely affordable. It’s a business model no one would ever attempt.

And as we’ve seen, even when you chuck money at the issue, like Grenfell, the factor of human error or the desire perhaps to lie for profit still negates the safety factor.

[Wiccan of Darkness]

There is a very sobering program on BBC1 right now. Theresa May said today she 'regretted' not meeting the Grenfell residents. Watching this program, it's clear why she didn't.

It still concerns me as to how quickly civil unrest took hold.

[Mojooo]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b6q36v/gre...

KBC should have admitted on day 1 that it was too big to handle and the Government should have sent a team in on the same day.

I think the anger was foreseeable and it did take a few days to build up because of the lack of response.

I do think the tower should be knocked down and turned into a park or something.

Oh, and can someone change the name of this thread to something a bit more suitable and easier to understand and identify.

[JagLover]

Mojooo said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0b6q36v/gre...

KBC should have admitted on day 1 that it was too big to handle and the Government should have sent a team in on the same day.

I think the anger was foreseeable and it did take a few days to build up because of the lack of response.

I do think the tower should be knocked down and turned into a park or something.

Oh, and can someone change the name of this thread to something a bit more suitable and easier to understand and identify.

Just one point to add to this however is that a number of residents didn't recognise that help was being provided by the council.

One tenant complained in a media interview about not seeing anyone from the council, whilst sat besides the social worker assigned to the family by the council....