Huge Fire In Block Of Flats

[Thankyou4calling]

I’ve been saying it all along.

Grenfell was not a slum tower block. It was a thriving community where people loved living.

It’s s fantastic area, the block itself was in good shape and people kept it that way.

The image portrayed as a run down block inhabited by illegal immigrants and sub let tenants is ridiculously wide of the mark.

The reality was hard working people who enjoyed their homes.

But that doesn’t make a good headline.

[WatchfulEye]

jules_s said:

Does anybody have any idea when the real technical nitty gritty comes out?

Apologies if I've missed it

Preliminary expert reports from fire safety specialists were Tuesday and Wednesday. Today was detailed evidence on the start of the fire from residents statements, CCTV, timeline of 999 calls, etc.

Transcripts of the hearings (updated at the end of the day) are at https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/hearings

The evidence presented at the hearings (written statements, video footage, power point presentations by experts, etc.) can be found at https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence

[WatchfulEye]

Mark300zx said:

Give me a link and I will have a look at it?

Here you go:
https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/file/701/d...

Page 12

London Fire Brigade said:

WM Dowden notes from his position at ground floor level that the fire has breached the window of
flat 16 and he wants to put a covering jet onto it. CM Secrett advises him not to at this point due to
the risk to BA Team One who are about to enter the flat (Source: Contemporaneous Notes: GTI RT17-
00013, GTIRT17-01215 and GTIRT17-00293 and MPS Witness Statement: GTIRT18-01065,
GTIRT17-01551)

[saaby93]

p1stonhead said:

As a pointless little side note, I don’t know why I assumed Grenfell to be a grotty council block akin to where I grew up, not something modern with glass and stainless steel everywhere.

CCTV still below is very different to what I imagined.

yep me had the wrong impression too
Assumed it was an old painted concrete place with painted metal handrails - certainly no fancy glass

[jules_s]

WatchfulEye said:

Preliminary expert reports from fire safety specialists were Tuesday and Wednesday. Today was detailed evidence on the start of the fire from residents statements, CCTV, timeline of 999 calls, etc.

Transcripts of the hearings (updated at the end of the day) are at https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/hearings

The evidence presented at the hearings (written statements, video footage, power point presentations by experts, etc.) can be found at https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/evidence

Cheers. I'll take a read when i've got more time to absorb it

With regard to the shiny SS/glass balustrades etc - Don't everybody jump on the high horses, that makes pretty good sense

[Mark300zx]

WatchfulEye said:

Mark300zx said:

Give me a link and I will have a look at it?

Here you go:
https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/file/701/d...

Page 12

London Fire Brigade said:

WM Dowden notes from his position at ground floor level that the fire has breached the window of
flat 16 and he wants to put a covering jet onto it. CM Secrett advises him not to at this point due to
the risk to BA Team One who are about to enter the flat (Source: Contemporaneous Notes: GTI RT17-
00013, GTIRT17-01215 and GTIRT17-00293 and MPS Witness Statement: GTIRT18-01065,
GTIRT17-01551)

Thanks, please see my post above which covers this point?

[kev1974]

bhstewie said:

CCTV released/shown today of the chap whose flat the fire started in as he left.

He was barefoot and carrying nothing, contrary to some of the media reports at the time.

It does make you question some of the "journalism" out there.

Yeah but third picture on the link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5869907/CC...

there is indeed a massive suitcase

turns out it belongs to one of the two women that were staying in his flat, and the article goes on to say that he made "what's she like!" type comments about her bringing the suitcase with her.

so the suitcase story is not completely a media fabrication as you're implying; rather it is easy to see why where the story of the suitcase came from, because there certainly was a suitcase, it's there in the CCTV, it's just that his guest or tenant or whatever she was was the one with it, and he was seen and heard talking to her about it, so I guess a little chinese whispering and it became his suitcase in the stories. So yes it turns out that the reality is that it wasn't his suitcase, but he was closely associated with a suitcase being removed from the building after all.

And seconded the comments on the relative niceness of the communal areas, that is clear to see in this footage. So all the people claiming that the refurb was only about making the outside pretty solely for the benefit of Kensington residents that had to look at it, can do one. Clearly the refurb made the inside look rather nice as well, even if the technical details of fire door and gas pipe building regulations weren't completely followed by some of the subcontractors.

[rscott]

kev1974 said:

bhstewie said:

CCTV released/shown today of the chap whose flat the fire started in as he left.

He was barefoot and carrying nothing, contrary to some of the media reports at the time.

It does make you question some of the "journalism" out there.

Yeah but third picture on the link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5869907/CC...

there is indeed a massive suitcase

turns out it belongs to one of the two women that were staying in his flat, and the article goes on to say that he made "what's she like!" type comments about her bringing the suitcase with her.

so the suitcase story is not completely a media fabrication as you're implying; rather it is easy to see why where the story of the suitcase came from, because there certainly was a suitcase, it's there in the CCTV, it's just that his guest or tenant or whatever she was was the one with it, and he was seen and heard talking to her about it, so I guess a little chinese whispering and it became his suitcase in the stories. So yes it turns out that the reality is that it wasn't his suitcase, but he was closely associated with a suitcase being removed from the building after all.

And seconded the comments on the relative niceness of the communal areas, that is clear to see in this footage. So all the people claiming that the refurb was only about making the outside pretty solely for the benefit of Kensington residents that had to look at it, can do one. Clearly the refurb made the inside look rather nice as well, even if the technical details of fire door and gas pipe building regulations weren't completely followed by some of the subcontractors.

That article has quotes from his statement where he'd previously complained about the new windows letting air in and that they'd just been sealed with a flammable sealant.

[bitchstewie]

kev1974 said:

Yeah but third picture on the link
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5869907/CC...

there is indeed a massive suitcase

turns out it belongs to one of the two women that were staying in his flat, and the article goes on to say that he made "what's she like!" type comments about her bringing the suitcase with her.

so the suitcase story is not completely a media fabrication as you're implying; rather it is easy to see why where the story of the suitcase came from, because there certainly was a suitcase, it's there in the CCTV, it's just that his guest or tenant or whatever she was was the one with it, and he was seen and heard talking to her about it, so I guess a little chinese whispering and it became his suitcase in the stories. So yes it turns out that the reality is that it wasn't his suitcase, but he was closely associated with a suitcase being removed from the building after all.

The stories that he packed things and left without warning his neighbours are a total utter fabrication based off the enquiry evidence and CCTV footage.

It's scummy gutter journalism for which a chaps life has been made hell to the point where he apparently wishes he hadn't made it out.

That's a pretty damning indictment of our press.

[iphonedyou]

WatchfulEye said:

Mark300zx said:

Give me a link and I will have a look at it?

Here you go:
https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/file/701/d...

Page 12

London Fire Brigade said:

WM Dowden notes from his position at ground floor level that the fire has breached the window of
flat 16 and he wants to put a covering jet onto it. CM Secrett advises him not to at this point due to
the risk to BA Team One who are about to enter the flat (Source: Contemporaneous Notes: GTI RT17-
00013, GTIRT17-01215 and GTIRT17-00293 and MPS Witness Statement: GTIRT18-01065,
GTIRT17-01551)

Jesus Christ. I can't remember the last time I cried - a decade ago, more? - and skimming that has me so close to tears.

Awful.

[p1stonhead]

Terrifying to read. The fire went up 19 floors on the cladding in 12 minutes. Insane.

[saaby93]

p1stonhead said:

Terrifying to read. The fire went up 19 floors on the cladding in 12 minutes. Insane.

ok if it does that and burns itself out without getting inside the building
It would have helped if the fire hadnt got outside the building and onto the cladding
Fire breaks

[p1stonhead]

saaby93 said:

p1stonhead said:

Terrifying to read. The fire went up 19 floors on the cladding in 12 minutes. Insane.

ok if it does that and burns itself out without getting inside the building
It would have helped if the fire hadnt got outside the building and onto the cladding
Fire breaks

You think?

[rdjohn]

Laurel Green said:

p1stonhead said:

This is abhorrent. Anyone who published such insanely unconfirmed stories should be severely reprimanded. It’s disgusting.

Reprehensible. Would be interesting to find out just where this 'story' began.

There was someone on the radio the other day saying that a journalist used to be someone who investigated a story for a couple of days and then sits down to write a piece.

Now, it is more than likely that a journalist will be someone sitting at a desk writing 5 stories before midday.

QED, they look no further than Facebook, or Twitter, and create so fake news.

But then there are not many willing to pay for a quality newspaper these days, so what is online becomes gospel.

[Ian Geary]

saaby93 said:

p1stonhead said:

As a pointless little side note, I don’t know why I assumed Grenfell to be a grotty council block akin to where I grew up, not something modern with glass and stainless steel everywhere.

CCTV still below is very different to what I imagined.

yep me had the wrong impression too
Assumed it was an old painted concrete place with painted metal handrails - certainly no fancy glass

Looks pretty narrow though, not that a refurb could do anything about that.

I wouldn't want fire fighters going up there against a stream of residents coming down, especially in smoke.

Which is why I think the lbf delayed reversing the stay put advice.

[Ian Geary]

Thankyou4calling said:

I’ve been saying it all along.

Grenfell was not a slum tower block. It was a thriving community where people loved living.

It’s s fantastic area, the block itself was in good shape and people kept it that way.

The image portrayed as a run down block inhabited by illegal immigrants and sub let tenants is ridiculously wide of the mark.

The reality was hard working people who enjoyed their homes.

But that doesn’t make a good headline.

Reading the Guardian today

Guardian said:

Kebede had been subletting the two bedrooms in his flat to two people.....About an hour after falling asleep on a mattress in the living room...

So, by no means representative, but sub letting was happening.

So, consider this. The tenant had been receiving Council subsidised accommodation in central London. He worked for Uber, and I would bet
he was on some form of housing benefit / income support for low income (though that is an assumption: a good number of social housing tenants are in fact on comfortable wages)

He was in the process of obtaining the flat, which he really liked, via right to buy - a state funded subsidy of min 35%, but in his case 60% as he had 1% for each of the 25 years of residency.

He had a mortgage - presumably based on Uber income? Was the sub-let income factored into any of that? Doubtful, as RBKC homes wouldn't have allowed a legitimate sub-let lease to be agreed.

So the idea that Grenfell was a sink for the forgotten strata that London / the Tories didn't want to see or hear seems somewhat hard to reconcile with the above.

Rather, it seems like the UK public sector had provided a pretty nice flat to the chap for quarter of a century, which he was getting to own at a massive discount, whilst breaking the lease clause to get (my assumption) cash in hand income on the side.

Ethiopian taxi driver 1, UK public finances 0


Of course, none of that is related to the terrible fire, and the massive apparent failings of the contractor, or landlord oversight of the works, or even the building control regime / industry regime that turned a blind eye to construction practices, or the indifference shown by the landlord / RBKC to the resident's concerns before and after the fire.


I am keen to find out more about the technical parts of the inquiry now...hopefully they can find an architect who has paid his subs.


Ian

[silverthorn2151]

Randy Winkman said:

silverthorn2151 said:

Now that the enquiry is past the tales from residents it's into the technical stuff. Can I recommend the daily podcast from radio 4. Very interesting and would allow discussion here with more detailed information rather than Chinese whispers and supposition.

But how do they get the technical info about how things unfolded without anyone saying anything? Inanimate objects cant speak can they?

Have a listen. The forensic investigation and analysis says way more than listening to what people say, but also includes what is said.

[Chris x]

WatchfulEye said:

Mark300zx said:

Give me a link and I will have a look at it?

Here you go:
https://www.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/file/701/d...

Page 12

London Fire Brigade said:

WM Dowden notes from his position at ground floor level that the fire has breached the window of
flat 16 and he wants to put a covering jet onto it. CM Secrett advises him not to at this point due to
the risk to BA Team One who are about to enter the flat (Source: Contemporaneous Notes: GTI RT17-
00013, GTIRT17-01215 and GTIRT17-00293 and MPS Witness Statement: GTIRT18-01065,
GTIRT17-01551)

Is there a link yet that follows on from that report?

[Randy Winkman]

silverthorn2151 said:

Randy Winkman said:

silverthorn2151 said:

Now that the enquiry is past the tales from residents it's into the technical stuff. Can I recommend the daily podcast from radio 4. Very interesting and would allow discussion here with more detailed information rather than Chinese whispers and supposition.

But how do they get the technical info about how things unfolded without anyone saying anything? Inanimate objects cant speak can they?

Have a listen. The forensic investigation and analysis says way more than listening to what people say, but also includes what is said.

Fair enough. But who decided what quotes to include?

[silverthorn2151]

they are playing extracts from the evidence given. There is always some selection involved. The first witness was delivering a 1000 page report after all. That will always be the case unless you go and listen to it live.

I have found it informative with no emotion or adjectives, if you see what I mean.