Finsbury Park

[Gavia]

wiggy001 said:

Gavia said:

You seem to be missing the key point though. ISIS kill Muslims every day and in far greater numbers than they kill any other religion. Why should a group, who themselves are being killed en masse have to protest en masse against those who are killing them to show they disagree?

They don't have to protest. They just have to stop turning a blind eye to extreme preachers radicalising their kids.

Why do you think they are turning a blind eye?

[rscott]

wiggy001 said:

They don't have to protest. They just have to stop turning a blind eye to extreme preachers radicalising their kids.

You mean by reporting them to the security services who then don't react to the reports?

[Countdown]

rscott said:

wiggy001 said:

They don't have to protest. They just have to stop turning a blind eye to extreme preachers radicalising their kids.

You mean by reporting them to the security services who then don't react to the reports?

And by banning them from mosques.....

[wiggy001]

Gavia said:

wiggy001 said:

Gavia said:

You seem to be missing the key point though. ISIS kill Muslims every day and in far greater numbers than they kill any other religion. Why should a group, who themselves are being killed en masse have to protest en masse against those who are killing them to show they disagree?

They don't have to protest. They just have to stop turning a blind eye to extreme preachers radicalising their kids.

Why do you think they are turning a blind eye?

Because, for example, Finsbury Park Mosque is still operating despite still apparently courting extremist preachers. Didsbury Mosque has been shown to have been handing out leaflets telling people Islam is incompatible with the western way of life (or vice versa). I'd guess those attending such mosques simply turn a blind eye to this rather than a) worshipping elsewhere and b) reporting this to the authorities (who may or may not do anything, as we know).

[Countdown]

Stickyfinger said:

If the leaders can have such an effect....why not a bigger effect by the whole community acting as one against those nutters who shield themselves within whichever community ?

This has been explained several times but you may have missed it. There is no single "muslim" commmunity, any more than there is a single "Christian" community, or a single "MUFC" community. It would be as ridiculous as saying "Well, there were 1700 road deaths last year, therefore the Driving community needs to act as one to stop these happening". It's just a stupid statement. Most drivers follow the law. there are some who are just complete dicks. that does not mean that ALL drivers are the same or that the 99% can somehow stop the dicks from being dicks.

As has also been pointed out, something like 95% of the victims are muslims. Don't you think that, if there was something this "muslim" community could do, they would have done it by now?

Stickyfinger said:

The "Mothers" protests against ALL the terrorists worked in NI did it not ?

I've not seen a single piece of evidence to suggest that the "Mothers protest" had any effect on the terrorists at all but happy to be corrected.

[Countdown]

wiggy001 said:

Because, for example, Finsbury Park Mosque is still operating despite still apparently courting extremist preachers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/finsbury-park-mosque-terror-attack-latest-abu-hamza-changed-since-won-awards-for-community-relations-a7798171.html

[Stickyfinger]

Gavia said:

You seem to be missing the key point though. ISIS kill Muslims every day and in far greater numbers than they kill any other religion. Why should a group, who themselves are being killed en masse have to protest en masse against those who are killing them to show they disagree?

I am making ZERO points about IS, Killing, who is being killed etc......please at least read my repeated emphasis on that.

I have NOT said "have to protest"
All I am saying is that it would help and be very effective (it has in NI and other places for example) in a number of ways.

There is ZERO reason to be so defensive about anything....it would be a very effective and positive action that would demonstrate the rejection of hate by one "side" and disarm the hate/mistrust on the other whilst showing those "tempted" by the faulty ideology that they should think again as any possible support of/action would not be wanted by those they think they would be fighting/acting for.

As said....Win, Win, Win

[Stickyfinger]

Countdown said:

I've not seen a single piece of evidence to suggest that the "Mothers protest" had any effect on the terrorists at all but happy to be corrected.

"Home" based terrorists can only operate effectively over time with the support of the people........the two sides started to loose that support as demonstrated by actions such as the Mothers protests which started to degrade the safe places for said terrorists.

[WinstonWolf]

Alpinestars said:

WinstonWolf said:

wsurfa said:

wc98 said:

B'stard Child said:

Yours don't leak?

Mine replaced a pair of Frank Thomas boots - I could walk all day in them and they never felt uncomfortable - they were resoled 3 times in 30 years and never leaked I was utterly gutted when the stitching actually rotted and they were falling apart.

So having had a pair of boots that had lasted 30 years and knowing in general that quality has gone down in line with price I pushed the boat out and bought a pair of Alpinestars that were technically well outside my lambrusco budget with champagne tastes

To say they have been a disappointment is an understatement...................

And they fking leak!!!

i prefer sidi black rain boots for wet weather riding. had mine for longer than i care to remember ,though the right boot was ruined on the first pair doing a track day on a cbr 400 with tired suspension at knockhill . the cure for that problem at the time was a new pair of boots and a new gsxr 750 ,well thought out solution that my wife couldn't argue with

Daytona security evo for me, fantastic, only downside is not currently having a bike to ride.....

AlpineStars? Meh, I'm a Crowtree man...

Very classic. Triumph bike?

God no, I like those reliable foreign ones

[Gavia]

Stickyfinger said:

Gavia said:

You seem to be missing the key point though. ISIS kill Muslims every day and in far greater numbers than they kill any other religion. Why should a group, who themselves are being killed en masse have to protest en masse against those who are killing them to show they disagree?

I am making ZERO points about IS, Killing, who is being killed etc......please at least read my repeated emphasis on that.

I have NOT said "have to protest"
All I am saying is that it would help and be very effective (it has in NI and other places for example) in a number of ways.

There is ZERO reason to be so defensive about anything....it would be a very effective and positive action that would demonstrate the rejection of hate by one "side" and disarm the hate/mistrust on the other whilst showing those "tempted" by the faulty ideology that they should think again as any possible support of/action would not be wanted by those they think they would be fighting/acting for.

As said....Win, Win, Win

I don't see how it would be effective though. The only people who ever call for marches and denouncements from the Muslim community, are those with, euphemistically speaking, a lack of understanding about the issue.

There are always statements denouncing the actions of any terrorist who has Muslim connections from the top of the Muslim tree and there were refusals to deal with the burial of the recent terrorists. Most of those statements and actions are ignored by those who remain blinkered to reality. There have been some marches, but I see it that a march will have two outcomes:

1. The EDL will be out in force for whatever reasons
2. Those who want to willmuse the march to justify that there is a Muslim community after all and either not enoug marched, or the fact they did march proves that the whole religion is rotten to the core and so on.

It's a lose, lose, lose situation IMO.

[Countdown]

Stickyfinger said:

Countdown said:

I've not seen a single piece of evidence to suggest that the "Mothers protest" had any effect on the terrorists at all but happy to be corrected.

"Home" based terrorists can only operate effectively over time with the support of the people........the two sides started to loose that support as demonstrated by actions such as the Mothers protests which started to degrade the safe places for said terrorists.

You are kidding I assume.....?

It wasn't the Mothers support that the Terrorists were relying on for support. It wasn't the mums that were home-baking semtex and assembling Armalites. Please feel free to show me a single piece of evidence that protest marches by a bunch of mums had any effect on the IRA or UDA or UVF

[Gavia]

wiggy001 said:

Gavia said:

wiggy001 said:

Gavia said:

You seem to be missing the key point though. ISIS kill Muslims every day and in far greater numbers than they kill any other religion. Why should a group, who themselves are being killed en masse have to protest en masse against those who are killing them to show they disagree?

They don't have to protest. They just have to stop turning a blind eye to extreme preachers radicalising their kids.

Why do you think they are turning a blind eye?

Because, for example, Finsbury Park Mosque is still operating despite still apparently courting extremist preachers. Didsbury Mosque has been shown to have been handing out leaflets telling people Islam is incompatible with the western way of life (or vice versa). I'd guess those attending such mosques simply turn a blind eye to this rather than a) worshipping elsewhere and b) reporting this to the authorities (who may or may not do anything, as we know).

Except for all of the below that's a great post

1. Finsbury Park mosque has won awards for their community work recently
2. Didsbury mosque has made some fairly bold statements denouncing the actions of the Manchester bomber, held a minutes silence for the victims and admitted they have a lot to learn, but are trying to do just that.
3. Many suspects have been reported, but the security services haven't always followed up on this. Funding and manpower may well be an issue here.

You need to stop regurgitating Tommy Robinson rants and think for yourself.

[Stickyfinger]

Gavia said:

I don't see how it would be effective though. The only people who ever call for marches and denouncements from the Muslim community, are those with, euphemistically speaking, a lack of understanding about the issue.

There are always statements denouncing the actions of any terrorist who has Muslim connections from the top of the Muslim tree and there were refusals to deal with the burial of the recent terrorists. Most of those statements and actions are ignored by those who remain blinkered to reality. There have been some marches, but I see it that a march will have two outcomes:

1. The EDL will be out in force for whatever reasons
2. Those who want to willmuse the march to justify that there is a Muslim community after all and either not enoug marched, or the fact they did march proves that the whole religion is rotten to the core and so on.

It's a lose, lose, lose situation IMO.

Again you miss my point....it is not a call from outside that is effective, it is action from within......the rest follows.

[Stickyfinger]

Countdown said:

You are kidding I assume.....?

It wasn't the Mothers support that the Terrorists were relying on for support. It wasn't the mums that were home-baking semtex and assembling Armalites. Please feel free to show me a single piece of evidence that protest marches by a bunch of mums had any effect on the IRA or UDA or UVF

I can assure you the change was very noticeable after the start of the Mothers for Peace started their demonstrations and was one of the initial catalysts for the political solution as it was exactly the worry about who was against them that made both the IRA and the UDA worried they were loosing their protection from the wider public (on each side)

[Gavia]

Stickyfinger said:

Again you miss my point....it is not a call from outside that is effective, it is action from within......the rest follows.

What call within?

You've spent pages denying that you've called for a march and now you're clearly calling for one.

What purpose will it serve? How will a bunch of people who have no connection to these lunatics, other than the lunatics claiming to be doing it in the name of their shared religion, solve anything? How will ISIS or the radicalised nutters suddenly change their views? After all ISIS usamds of them every month, so what will this change?

The LBC video posted earlier says it all. What if Darren Osborne claimed to have run over a group of Muslims and killed one of them said he did it in the name of Darren's across the world? Would you expect all Darrens to join forces and march to provide the action from within?

[Stickyfinger]

Gavia said:

What call within?

You've spent pages denying that you've called for a march and now you're clearly calling for one.

What purpose will it serve? How will a bunch of people who have no connection to these lunatics, other than the lunatics claiming to be doing it in the name of their shared religion, solve anything? How will ISIS or the radicalised nutters suddenly change their views? After all ISIS usamds of them every month, so what will this change?

The LBC video posted earlier says it all. What if Darren Osborne claimed to have run over a group of Muslims and killed one of them said he did it in the name of Darren's across the world? Would you expect all Darrens to join forces and march to provide the action from within?

Nope, I suggest the previous examples have shown it is a good thing and has an effect.....I do not call for one, demand, expect nor require one, I put it forward as a positive possible action with great benefits.

Read up on the Peach Movement in NI to see the benefits of such actions.....come back later.

Last point....please don't be fking stupid.

[Gavia]

Stickyfinger said:

Nope, I suggest the previous examples have shown it is a good thing and has an effect.....I do not call for one, demand, expect nor require one, I put it forward as a positive possible action with great benefits.

Read up on the Peach Movement in NI to see the benefits of such actions.....come back later.

Last point....please don't be fking stupid.

You just keep repeating the same statement as if it alters something. It doesn't.

Lay off on the insults too, it doesn't reflect well on your ability to debate.

[Stickyfinger]

Gavia said:

You just keep repeating the same statement as if it alters something. It doesn't.

Lay off on the insults too, it doesn't reflect well on your ability to debate.

Then stop making fking stupid remarks like you did....all Darren's my arse

really, go read up on the Peace Movement and their street protests.....take your time and then come back. (Hint, you learn sweet FA in two minutes between posts)

[Alpinestars]

Stickyfinger said:

Gavia said:

You just keep repeating the same statement as if it alters something. It doesn't.

Lay off on the insults too, it doesn't reflect well on your ability to debate.

Then stop making fking stupid remarks like you did....all Darren's my arse

really, go read up on the Peace Movement and their street protests.....take your time and then come back. (Hint, you learn sweet FA in two minutes between posts)

Not sure we need to know about Darren and your arse.

How about trying to debate and not swear every time you run out of intellect. You've had a number of posters explain the point about marches to you, but it always ends in a juvenile foul mouthed rant.

Another rant from you;

If so "BOB-On", why no mass protests in the streets of European capitals by the Muslim community in the same way there was an Anti War protest ? You would think they would work hard to show their disgust and rejection of these developments in their religion

I do not understand the Muslim community, they take bugger all mass action and are so reluctant to condemn as a group (I am talking mass here, not 30 odd)

[Stickyfinger]

Alpinestars said:

Not sure we need to know about Darren and your arse.

How about trying to debate and not swear every time you run out of intellect. You've had a number of posters explain the point about marches to you, but it always ends in a juvenile foul mouthed rant.

Another rant from you;

If so "BOB-On", why no mass protests in the streets of European capitals by the Muslim community in the same way there was an Anti War protest ? You would think they would work hard to show their disgust and rejection of these developments in their religion

I do not understand the Muslim community, they take bugger all mass action and are so reluctant to condemn as a group (I am talking mass here, not 30 odd)

No rant there mate, and I stand by that.

Your thoughts on the Peace Movement and its effects in NI ?, it IS an example of positive community action that had a significant effect but you choose to dismiss fact/recorded history/effect and continue your "what if's" and silly examples.

Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 23 June 18:56