Fruit grower voted Leave - sorry now!
Discussion
anonymous said:
[redacted]
I didn't deny making them up, in fact I opened by asking what %. so it didn't need pointing out that I was speculating when I then used i.e. ....say 10% in order to put something out there.....at no point did I say they were accurate (in fact I stated I doubted they were) and then used this as an example to disprove the theory that a small increase in a part of production (labour) could lead to a doubling of the end price.You don't like my made up figures, post loads of stuff but no figures and yet somehow think price could double because you know lots about retail pricing....So what % of the final cost to the customer is taken up by fruit pickers wages?
Nothingtoseehere said:
I've always thought you're on a different planet.
Pay people a proper wage and they'll work,7.50 pH is scraping an existence.
Not many would turn down 20 pH.
How much do you think someone picking fruit should be paid? If you increase their wages, what about the people with more responsibility than them? Pay people a proper wage and they'll work,7.50 pH is scraping an existence.
Not many would turn down 20 pH.
Most of these people will live on site cheaply and have probably zero commuting costs. They'll work hard during the season and go home rich.
If you start increasing their wages, to what ever you think they should be on, what about all the people on doing unpaid internships?
Should everyone's starting salary be £45,000, company car, health care and final salary pension? Up until the vote, there was plenty of people willing to work for this money and work hard with it and there will be a lot of people taking home far less than these people. And I'll say it again, there will all the overtime they can handle and while many will just go for the season, then go back home, there will be some required for the whole year who will end up in responsible positions and this earning more cash. The pay hasn't been an issue, the issue now will be "is it worth my while coming to the UK"? They will be thinking this because A) they may feel unwelcome and B) there may be issues around work permits.
There are plenty of people on the same money working in offices.
Robertj21a said:
Slightly off at a tangent....
Just HOW do we get the really lazy to do some work ? Would cutting ALL benefits get a few backsides away from their TVs and out earning real money for themselves ?
The trouble is, and always has been, that benefits go to various categories of people:Just HOW do we get the really lazy to do some work ? Would cutting ALL benefits get a few backsides away from their TVs and out earning real money for themselves ?
1. The workshy. These people do exist but, contrary to what the right wing tabloid press would have you believe, they are very much in a minority.Some of these may be persuaded to get off their arses, but many more of them would be persuaded to go begging on the street, or go out at night with a jemmy and a bag marked "swag," or mugging pensioners who have just collected their pension at the Post Office.
2. The unemployable - too thick to do much productive work at all. The remedial class in my school 50 years ago was full of 'em whose pinnacle in life would probably have been cleaning the toilets. The trouble is, we've now closed most of the public bogs...
3. The long-term sick. What are you going to do about them?
4. Those who have fallen on hard times beyond their control eg. the woman with six kids who's husband had died or buggered off. Or perhaps he's inside.
The other problem is that some people receive benefits that they don't think are benefits. I was listening to an absolute tosser ex-pat on "Any Answers" on radio 4 this afternoon, who was arguing that all his ex-pat mates on his Costa didn't receive any benefits whilst all the Portuguese in the UK are receiving government money hand over fist. I wonder how he found that out?
In the meantime of course, the benefits he thinks he's not receiving include a UK State Pension and a winter fuel payment that he doesn't need, and at least an entitlement to a bus pass should he be visiting the UK.
Other benefits that some people don't think they are getting include Child Benefit and War Widows pensions.
I could probably go on but that will do for now.
So what do you mean by ALL benefits? Because when you start to drill down into the subject, it ain't as easy as it might first sound. A bit like Brexit ...
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Asking for other opinions on a figure an then putting my own example figure out there for people to discuss, or input their own is not making things up in my book.saying " Don't talk silly man, what are you on about making things up?" meant to me it really didn't need you to point out as I had clearly stated they were example figures just put in to start a debate.
But I do agree with you on one thing at least: "The gibberish people will post to try to save face, quite extraordinary. Still, all good fun!
"anonymous said:
[redacted]
So what you are saying is that you lived a whole life and you dont understand how business works ? Ok lets make it easy for you
Lets say you are a farmer and your wage bill goes up by 20%, in most case you would need to borrow your operating costs from the bank because you know fruit and veg means hundreds of thousands sitting in the land for months at a time. So you instantly have a bigger 20% loan that you need to pay interest on, so farmer needs to increase his prices by 40% instead of 20 to stay afloat. Repeat this 3 times throught the chain and you got a 70% price increase
Tryke3 said:
So what you are saying is that you lived a whole life and you dont understand how business works ?
Ok lets make it easy for you
Lets say you are a farmer and your wage bill goes up by 20%, in most case you would need to borrow your operating costs from the bank because you know fruit and veg means hundreds of thousands sitting in the land for months at a time. So you instantly have a bigger 20% loan that you need to pay interest on, so farmer needs to increase his prices by 40% instead of 20 to stay afloat. Repeat this 3 times throught the chain and you got a 70% price increase
Not a clue about business.Ok lets make it easy for you
Lets say you are a farmer and your wage bill goes up by 20%, in most case you would need to borrow your operating costs from the bank because you know fruit and veg means hundreds of thousands sitting in the land for months at a time. So you instantly have a bigger 20% loan that you need to pay interest on, so farmer needs to increase his prices by 40% instead of 20 to stay afloat. Repeat this 3 times throught the chain and you got a 70% price increase
So back to my original question then:
So what % of the final cost to the customer is taken up by fruit pickers wages?
I love the thought that Mr Farmer can just ask for more money for his strawberries and you think he will get it? Farmers are price takers and not price makers and nobody has mentioned that the cost that the farmer gets barely has any relation to the retail price! 25 years ago I was at a visit to a brewery in Edinburgh when I asked the production manager what percentage of the cost of a pint was made up by malting barley. It was less than 2p but I can't remember how much a pint was but it was a trifeling little percentage. If the brewery had paid twice as much for malting barley it would have had little effect on their production costs. When you see a 2.5kg bag of potatoes on the supermarket shelf for £4 and then see the farmer gets £120 a ton, well you do the maths!
stichill99 said:
I love the thought that Mr Farmer can just ask for more money for his strawberries and you think he will get it? Farmers are price takers and not price makers and nobody has mentioned that the cost that the farmer gets barely has any relation to the retail price! 25 years ago I was at a visit to a brewery in Edinburgh when I asked the production manager what percentage of the cost of a pint was made up by malting barley. It was less than 2p but I can't remember how much a pint was but it was a trifeling little percentage. If the brewery had paid twice as much for malting barley it would have had little effect on their production costs. When you see a 2.5kg bag of potatoes on the supermarket shelf for £4 and then see the farmer gets £120 a ton, well you do the maths!
Which, albeit in a clumsy way, is what I was trying to say......I don't believe a relatively small increase in overall production (labour) cost would result in the end user paying twice the price for the product.,, and to say it would in relation to not having cheap immigrant labour is scaremongering IMO.... god forbid we get the predicted post referendum out vote of plagues of locusts.............what price would we have to pay for our fruit and veg then?Nothingtoseehere said:
I've always thought you're on a different planet.
Pay people a proper wage and they'll work,7.50 pH is scraping an existence.
Not many would turn down 20 pH.
DELETED: Comment made by a member who's account has been deleted.Pay people a proper wage and they'll work,7.50 pH is scraping an existence.
Not many would turn down 20 pH.
I have yet to meet an immigrant worker who is lazy, but I remain extremely sceptical about there being a level playing field.
My second thought is the next few years (decade?) will be an adjustment period where British real wages continue to fall or under perform those of the closest trading partners which will drive British labor towards competitiveness. However it would likely mean leaning towards exporting as UK consumers will not retain the level of purchasing power they previously enjoyed. In some industries without easy access to export markets this may also mean scaling the industry or diversifying. So, in a way, the problem may fix itself by creating a different problem.
Living in New Zealand I'm also very interested to see what replaces the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP.) Obviously due to food security being in the national interest most countries have a subsidisation program, that's completely understandable. I'm sure with the population density and "historic experiences" the UK has had will mean the UK is going to be extremely generous with strategic farming subsidies but there may still be some opportunity.
Living in New Zealand I'm also very interested to see what replaces the Common Agricultural Policy (CAP.) Obviously due to food security being in the national interest most countries have a subsidisation program, that's completely understandable. I'm sure with the population density and "historic experiences" the UK has had will mean the UK is going to be extremely generous with strategic farming subsidies but there may still be some opportunity.
We have housed a lot of Eastern European tenants over the past ten years. Since the Brexit vote they have become fewer in number and we've taken on more British. Our rent arrears has increased significantly, as has the incidence of antisocial behaviour and general abuse of tenancies.
So said:
We have housed a lot of Eastern European tenants over the past ten years. Since the Brexit vote they have become fewer in number and we've taken on more British. Our rent arrears has increased significantly, as has the incidence of antisocial behaviour and general abuse of tenancies.
........and before all the do-gooders rant and rave at you, I'd guess that your experiences are quite common across the country, and rather as we'd have expected.Norfolkit said:
AJB88 said:
alock said:
our government to needs to make it less desirable for unemployed people to reject these jobs.
.
This. .
Here's a job you can do, do it or f
k off, why is being unemployed an option if you are physically able to work and work is available.We would cycle to the fruit farm quite early, provisioned with sandwiches and water, wearing oldish clothes and traines and caps we would work in the fruit field.
There was no pay at the time, you were paid per punnet or tray depending on produce involved.
Later, fair knackered we cycled home. Really enjoyed those 3 summers.
If you send people who do not want to work.
1. You will need to provide all workwear and boots, you then have a choice. Insist they maintain their own gear and lose it, or maintain it yourself and swallow the cost.
2. You will need to pay an hourly rate for which you will receive at the end of the day empty punnets.
3. An hour in someone will complain you havent given them a break, a snack or a can of redbull yet, the awful realiseation dawns that this mob are expecting you to feed and water them as well.
4. By lunchtime there have been 3 fights, destroying large amounts of fruit the losers of which have left to seek legal advice about the lack of protection you provided.
With many noteable exceptions, ther is often a reason people are unemployed.
rs1952 said:
The trouble is, and always has been, that benefits go to various categories of people:
1. The workshy. These people do exist but, contrary to what the right wing tabloid press would have you believe, they are very much in a minority.Some of these may be persuaded to get off their arses, but many more of them would be persuaded to go begging on the street, or go out at night with a jemmy and a bag marked "swag," or mugging pensioners who have just collected their pension at the Post Office.
2. The unemployable - too thick to do much productive work at all. The remedial class in my school 50 years ago was full of 'em whose pinnacle in life would probably have been cleaning the toilets. The trouble is, we've now closed most of the public bogs...
3. The long-term sick. What are you going to do about them?
4. Those who have fallen on hard times beyond their control eg. the woman with six kids who's husband had died or buggered off. Or perhaps he's inside.
The other problem is that some people receive benefits that they don't think are benefits. I was listening to an absolute tosser ex-pat on "Any Answers" on radio 4 this afternoon, who was arguing that all his ex-pat mates on his Costa didn't receive any benefits whilst all the Portuguese in the UK are receiving government money hand over fist. I wonder how he found that out?
In the meantime of course, the benefits he thinks he's not receiving include a UK State Pension and a winter fuel payment that he doesn't need, and at least an entitlement to a bus pass should he be visiting the UK.
Other benefits that some people don't think they are getting include Child Benefit and War Widows pensions.
I could probably go on but that will do for now.
So what do you mean by ALL benefits? Because when you start to drill down into the subject, it ain't as easy as it might first sound. A bit like Brexit ...
agreed, the exact same position is also taken by the private sector re subsidies though.1. The workshy. These people do exist but, contrary to what the right wing tabloid press would have you believe, they are very much in a minority.Some of these may be persuaded to get off their arses, but many more of them would be persuaded to go begging on the street, or go out at night with a jemmy and a bag marked "swag," or mugging pensioners who have just collected their pension at the Post Office.
2. The unemployable - too thick to do much productive work at all. The remedial class in my school 50 years ago was full of 'em whose pinnacle in life would probably have been cleaning the toilets. The trouble is, we've now closed most of the public bogs...
3. The long-term sick. What are you going to do about them?
4. Those who have fallen on hard times beyond their control eg. the woman with six kids who's husband had died or buggered off. Or perhaps he's inside.
The other problem is that some people receive benefits that they don't think are benefits. I was listening to an absolute tosser ex-pat on "Any Answers" on radio 4 this afternoon, who was arguing that all his ex-pat mates on his Costa didn't receive any benefits whilst all the Portuguese in the UK are receiving government money hand over fist. I wonder how he found that out?
In the meantime of course, the benefits he thinks he's not receiving include a UK State Pension and a winter fuel payment that he doesn't need, and at least an entitlement to a bus pass should he be visiting the UK.
Other benefits that some people don't think they are getting include Child Benefit and War Widows pensions.
I could probably go on but that will do for now.
So what do you mean by ALL benefits? Because when you start to drill down into the subject, it ain't as easy as it might first sound. A bit like Brexit ...
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