Fruit grower voted Leave - sorry now!

[sugerbear]

Jockman said:

Ayahuasca said:

Since when did leaving the EU mean no more immigrants to pick fruit?

If we need fruit pickers, fruit pickers we shall have.


Targeted immigration. I have an example of how this works: Where I live there was a shortage of good looking sex workers. This was seen by the government as a bit of a problem. Solution - a sex worker's visa.

You could have a fruit-picker's visa.

The bigger issue may be the financial attractiveness.

A Sex Working fruit picker visa. #solved.

[PurpleMoonlight]

Ayahuasca said:

Targeted immigration. I have an example of how this works: Where I live there was a shortage of good looking sex workers. This was seen by the government as a bit of a problem. Solution - a sex worker's visa.

Liverpool?

[Disastrous]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Why not? Because it is not desirable to have a situation where our professionals don't earn enough in their jobs alone to pay off their student loan or buy a house.

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

Why do you think it's better to not pay teachers enough to do this? You must see that it simply reduces the incentive to study a professional career.

Anecdotal stories about what you did at Uni aren't really evidence that it's generally a 'good thing' to pay our professionals so little they need to take on second jobs is it?

I worked st jobs when I was at Uni as well but now I work hard at an actual job. Why would I want to go backwards? It's not about entitlement or snobbishness really. It's about professional careers paying sufficiently well that they become attractive career options which helps the economy overall.

[Jockman]

Disastrous said:

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

.

Funnily enough, you can also do that in the U.K.

[Disastrous]

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

.

Funnily enough, you can also do that in the U.K.

Of course you can. Did you read the rest of my post? Isaac Hunt thinks it would be better if they had to do a menial job as well in order to do that and used an example of a teacher friend who did just that.

[FiF]

Sorry to the usual suspects but I was forced to chuckle at a bit on the tv where there was a Remainer biddy who couldn't seem to string a coherent argument together and just kept saying we should stop it, whereas the opposition argued reasonably eloquently and politely, including a Leave voting Polish guy who saw no problem for his business which is in an area often cited as going to struggle without migrant workers. The Remain response was to continue to bluster and say just stop it.

Feel sorry for you to be saddled with such a pathetically poor showing.

[Yertis]

rs1952 said:

I’ll pose a question – if a company in Zimbabwe were advertising for a job that you could do and offering good salaries, would you move there? Somehow I doubt that the number of applicants from the UK would be very large, to say the least… Brits are generally not welcome in Zimbabwe, and its beginning to look like the UK is looking similarly unattractive to EU migrants.

I like your posts RS, esp. those to do with steam locomotive operations in the Bristol area during the early 1960s. But to compare modern-day Britain with Zimbabwe as a destination is a bit of a stretch.

[mcdjl]

Disastrous said:

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

.

Funnily enough, you can also do that in the U.K.

Of course you can. Did you read the rest of my post? Isaac Hunt thinks it would be better if they had to do a menial job as well in order to do that and used an example of a teacher friend who did just that.

Equally if the teacher wants to do a fruit picking job for some of their summer holiday and earn extra cash to pay of the mortgage/save quicker, why not?

[Jockman]

Disastrous said:

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

.

Funnily enough, you can also do that in the U.K.

Of course you can. Did you read the rest of my post? Isaac Hunt thinks it would be better if they had to do a menial job as well in order to do that and used an example of a teacher friend who did just that.

I read all your post and I've now gone back 2 pages for a bit of context.

Firstly if anybody wants to take a second job - subject to contract conditions - then good on them. Good work ethic and adds to the public purse.

Where I'm from, Teachers do not have to do this to have the lifestyle you depict. That there are parts of the country where this is not possible, as you suggest, is indeed disappointing and is something we should address.

Govt measures to address this are starting to bite but it really is a difficult square to circle.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boost-for-first...

[rs1952]

Yertis said:

rs1952 said:

I’ll pose a question – if a company in Zimbabwe were advertising for a job that you could do and offering good salaries, would you move there? Somehow I doubt that the number of applicants from the UK would be very large, to say the least… Brits are generally not welcome in Zimbabwe, and its beginning to look like the UK is looking similarly unattractive to EU migrants.

I like your posts RS, esp. those to do with steam locomotive operations in the Bristol area during the early 1960s.

Thanks - but that's generally on the Bristol Railway Archive and not on here

Yertis said:

But to compare modern-day Britain with Zimbabwe as a destination is a bit of a stretch.

I wasn't comparing Zimbabwe with the UK - I was comparing attitudes of governments and populations. The point I was making was that if any of us don't feel comfortable/ have grave reservations about doing something then we tend not to do it. That's human nature and has a myriad examples from not walking down dark alleys late at night to not going to countries where we feel we would not be welcome.

If potential migrants get the feeling that they are not welcome in the UK then they will not come - simple as that. If it happens, and there is already evidence to suggest that it is, then immigration will fall without any new government policies at all. It will fall because potential immigrants will vote with their feet and go somewhere that they do feel welcome.

[Pan Pan Pan]

menousername said:

Pan Pan Pan said:

Why do you think it is acceptable to import low paid workers from outside the country, whilst at the same time making it easy for those UK nationals (for whom the word `work' is a swear word) who want to sit on their a*ses all day watching Jeremy Kyle, and sucking up benefits?
The first thing which should be done is to get those who think living on benefits is a lifestyle into work, There are too many who are only too happy to have someone else (immigrants) come here to do the work they want to avoid, so that they can parasitically live off the tax money benefits, that those who actually do work generate.
If there was some way the work dodgers could be moved out of the country, whilst retaining those who do want to work, it would be a win, win situation for the workers, and the UK as a whole, and would help avoid downward pressure on wages being caused by an influx of people who are willing to work harder for longer for less, just for the opportunity to get into the UK, or out of the countries they come from where there is no work.

You are stuck in a self-contradiction loop and you cant see out.

I do not believe the issue is that it is too easy to live on benefits. I believe the issue is that it is too difficult to get a job.

As per the other poster - 3 part time minimum wage opportunities had over 100 applicants each. That tells you something right there.

How does earning mimimum wage picking fruit, probably with no secured employment but subject to demand, sit by the phone and wait for a call so long as its not raining, doing unpredictable and unsociable hours PAYE, that means you need help getting the kids to and from school, means you go through a process of ceasing benefits and paying rent etc, then signing back on when the work dries up, then back off, each time being told you are not eligible because you have employment options, help?

Not to mention its a pretty gruelling job picking fruit and you have to be relatively strong and fit.

How does that existence help? Could you survive like that? What makes you or anyone else on this board any better? Because you are one of the lucky ones? You think, given the opportunity, someone on benefits could not do your job better than you?

Its a complicated thing. Low paid / unemployed tend to be more hungry. I speak from experience. But its a dark place to be with no light at the end of the tunnel. It robs you of your self-esteem, your comfidence, your belief in yourself- all the things you need for a successful interview for any job. You turn up for an interview, if you can get one, that has 100 other applicants so the odds are against you anyway. How do you get out of that. Its not that people enjoy being on benefits, its that it becomes a self-fulfilling loop.

Does anyone on here really thing that in the next 5-10 years they are not themselves extremely likely to be on the dole? Does anybody on here with young children really believe their kids arent going to spend the majority of their 20s, if not their 30s, 40s and 50s, without secure employment and no hoppe of a car, house, holiday, etc. Their is a real prospect that your kids will become the "feckless" you all demonize on here.

Strange then, that over three and half million EU nationals, not to mention a similar number from outside the EU, have been able to come to the UK over the last 10 years, and get a job, and a place to live, or are you one of those who believes that they all come here for the weather, or just to take benefits they have not worked for out of the UK economy. And yet there are around a million UK nationals who somehow cannot get a job? Some might be genuinely unable to do so through disabilities, which is what the welfare state was set up to address, but eating oneself to 30 stone, or being workshy is not a disability, it is a lifestyle choice.
That is the problem with a high level of immigration for an indigenous population, even those who are prepared to do a days work for a days money, since they will have to compete with another 350 thousand plus people each year coming from the EU alone, Each of them coming here, and competing for the same school and uni places, the same jobs. the same housing, the same health care, the same transport etc as the indigenous population. Many of these individuals who seem willing to work harder, for longer, for less. So if you were an employer, which would you choose?
The world owes no one a living, It seems that many coming here from outside the UK understand that, whilst many here do not.
If someone, regardless of where they come from, or their background, is thick, lazy, or both, whilst someone else, regardless of where they come from or their background is intelligent, has acquired some usable skills, and is prepared to work hard, or at least harder than the next individual, who do you believe will be the one most likely to land a job?

[jjlynn27]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40354331

Only one British applied in 5 years. He left the same day 'this job is not for me'.

[crankedup]

markcoznottz said:

mike74 said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

TBH it was a bit of a rhetorical question, as far as I'm concerned the main reason that governments for the last 2 decades have been allowing uncontrolled immigration is because it makes the GDP figures look healthy... more people = higher GDP, it's that simple

The government also get a few added bonuses such as it inflates property prices and depresses wages, which is always handy when you want a nation full of poorly paid obedient little workers and mortgage debt slaves.

Definitely keeps wages down. Remember the early 90's? Loads of jobs many very well paid and no minimum wage either, just supply and demand.

Indeed 100% correct, now the supply of labour exceeds availability of jobs. Employers dream.
Back in the 1950's gypsies would travel around fruit picking and seasonal labouring.
Winners and losers in every National and EU Policy. Losers are angry and winners are smug, who these people are depends upon your own personal perspective,

[Zod]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

You'd have to pick a lot of strawberries to do that these days!

[gazza285]

citizensm1th said:

so do you think there are enough unemployed people in the areas that require fruit and veg pickers or are you proposing to buss people in from the cities?

Instead of flying pickers in from Eastern Europe, then putting them on a bus?

[Disastrous]

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

.

Funnily enough, you can also do that in the U.K.

Of course you can. Did you read the rest of my post? Isaac Hunt thinks it would be better if they had to do a menial job as well in order to do that and used an example of a teacher friend who did just that.

I read all your post and I've now gone back 2 pages for a bit of context.

Firstly if anybody wants to take a second job - subject to contract conditions - then good on them. Good work ethic and adds to the public purse.

Where I'm from, Teachers do not have to do this to have the lifestyle you depict. That there are parts of the country where this is not possible, as you suggest, is indeed disappointing and is something we should address.

Govt measures to address this are starting to bite but it really is a difficult square to circle.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boost-for-first...

I agree. And also would never stand in the way of anyone supplementing their income with a second job (I work as a musician and an actor on the side to fund 'toys' and so on). But I don't 'need' to, to have a decent standard of living.

My point really, is that posts like Isaac's aren't really helpful in the context of discussing Brexit's impact on businesses such as the one in the OP. I just don't think anyone (sane) really wants to go back to some idealised 'good old days' where great British people pick great British fruit so they can buy a great British house because their great British 'proper' job that they studied and built up student debt for, doesn't pay enough.

It's just not helpful to say 'in my day...' because we're not. We're in today's day so what my parents did at my age is pretty irrelevant.

A lot of British businesses are dependent on immigrant labour. They will suffer. They will not get loads of indigenous Brits doing the job instead so let's not pretend they will just because Isaac pulled pints as a student or whatever.

Also, zero sympathy for the strawberry man. Turkey/Xmas. Ha ha.

[Jockman]

Disastrous said:

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

Jockman said:

Disastrous said:

In Germany (for example) you can study at university, become a teacher and get paid well enough to buy a nice house, support a family and go on holiday etc.

.

Funnily enough, you can also do that in the U.K.

Of course you can. Did you read the rest of my post? Isaac Hunt thinks it would be better if they had to do a menial job as well in order to do that and used an example of a teacher friend who did just that.

I read all your post and I've now gone back 2 pages for a bit of context.

Firstly if anybody wants to take a second job - subject to contract conditions - then good on them. Good work ethic and adds to the public purse.

Where I'm from, Teachers do not have to do this to have the lifestyle you depict. That there are parts of the country where this is not possible, as you suggest, is indeed disappointing and is something we should address.

Govt measures to address this are starting to bite but it really is a difficult square to circle.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boost-for-first...

I agree. And also would never stand in the way of anyone supplementing their income with a second job (I work as a musician and an actor on the side to fund 'toys' and so on). But I don't 'need' to, to have a decent standard of living.

My point really, is that posts like Isaac's aren't really helpful in the context of discussing Brexit's impact on businesses such as the one in the OP. I just don't think anyone (sane) really wants to go back to some idealised 'good old days' where great British people pick great British fruit so they can buy a great British house because their great British 'proper' job that they studied and built up student debt for, doesn't pay enough.

It's just not helpful to say 'in my day...' because we're not. We're in today's day so what my parents did at my age is pretty irrelevant.

A lot of British businesses are dependent on immigrant labour. They will suffer. They will not get loads of indigenous Brits doing the job instead so let's not pretend they will just because Isaac pulled pints as a student or whatever.

Also, zero sympathy for the strawberry man. Turkey/Xmas. Ha ha.

Good, honest post. The only caveat I would add is that the brexit voted seemed to me to be a vote against uncontrolled immigration rather than immigration per se.

Yes, I appreciate the 50/50 split of non EUs as well as the controls currently at the govts disposal. I also appreciate that the majority of immigrant communities outside of London voted to leave. This is discussed elsewhere.

[jshell]

Another shyte Brexit thread fails to go the way the OP/whingers expected/wanted. I wish these remoaners would just shut up, get on board and help instead of grabbing every excuse to weep their eyes out!

[Pan Pan Pan]

Anyone with a skill, a suitable level of intelligence, and a good work ethic, (and if possible all three assets) is more likely to get a job anywhere, regardless of where they come from, or their background, They might just have to travel away from their natural home to do so, just like millions of people have done throughout history, However If they want that plumb job, that is very well paid, and not very hard to do, handed to them on their doorstep, they might just have to wait a bit.

[Ridgemont]

BrassMan said:

Ridgemont said:

An odd consequence of Brexit (feature?) is that it will make the cost of labour higher and very possibly drive mechanisation. At which point productivity will finally get of its knees. The reality of ready and cheap supplies of skilled and unskilled labour across a vast array of industries, has been a major factor in low investment and innovation and a punishingly low level of production to capita. Bring it on.

Are you sure about that? I keep hearing that the recent mass migration has had ne effect on wages.

It depends on which segment of the working population you look at. As per this oxford study (http://www.migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/briefings/the-labour-market-effects-of-immigration/) a 1% increase in the migrant share of the population saw a 0.6% decline in wages in the worst paid 5%. However my point wasn't really about the impact on reducing salaries, but more the displacement effect on productivity and investment. Why retool or innovate when the more cost effective solution is to hire more hands.