Discussion
So to summarise:
- A therapy is being proposed that even the most generous claim suggests will have only a marginally positive effect.
- Analysis suggests that there can be no positive effect as the mechanism is flawed, and if anything the only likely outcome will be a further reduction in lifespan.
- Beyond this, even if a magic treatment was found that completely, immediately and permanently fixed the MDDS, it has already done so much irreversible damage that it wouldn't be in the child's interests to proceed.
I suspect almost everyone involved can already see all this. And those that can't see it won't be persuaded by anything that is put in front of them.
- A therapy is being proposed that even the most generous claim suggests will have only a marginally positive effect.
- Analysis suggests that there can be no positive effect as the mechanism is flawed, and if anything the only likely outcome will be a further reduction in lifespan.
- Beyond this, even if a magic treatment was found that completely, immediately and permanently fixed the MDDS, it has already done so much irreversible damage that it wouldn't be in the child's interests to proceed.
I suspect almost everyone involved can already see all this. And those that can't see it won't be persuaded by anything that is put in front of them.
Haven't been on much this weekend but just wanted to pop by to say "thank you" to both WatchfulEye and Wiccan. Very informative posts and I'm starting to wrap my head around what the actual condition is. If trying the therapy did hasten Charlie's death then who will the parents blame, the doctor that "told them" it would work, or GOSH for "delaying" his treatment? Sadly I think we all know the answer 
(I'm putting "told them" in brackets as some of the court information Wiccan has posted suggests that the American hasn't actually promised a cure, but a lot of what Charlie's parents have said indicates that they feel he has).
(I'm putting "told them" in brackets as some of the court information Wiccan has posted suggests that the American hasn't actually promised a cure, but a lot of what Charlie's parents have said indicates that they feel he has).
Interesting thread and great to see such informative posts from WoD and others. I would love to know what is really going through the mind of those parents. Do they honestly believe that some kind of miracle cure exists?
It's terrible to think, but I wonder if there is an agenda at work here, one that is not born out of love and desperate hope of saving that poor child.
It's terrible to think, but I wonder if there is an agenda at work here, one that is not born out of love and desperate hope of saving that poor child.
TurbosSuck said:
Interesting thread and great to see such informative posts from WoD and others. I would love to know what is really going through the mind of those parents. Do they honestly believe that some kind of miracle cure exists?
It's terrible to think, but I wonder if there is an agenda at work here, one that is not born out of love and desperate hope of saving that poor child.
What agenda are you thinking of?It's terrible to think, but I wonder if there is an agenda at work here, one that is not born out of love and desperate hope of saving that poor child.
Unless you have been in exactly the same position as his parents you cannot predict how you will react.
A parent will go to great lengths to protect their child.
His parents are so desperate they will try anything.
They are so vulnerable that certain individuals can take advantage of this for their own agendas.
It's a desperate situation.
GreatGranny said:
What agenda are you thinking of?
Unless you have been in exactly the same position as his parents you cannot predict how you will react.
A parent will go to great lengths to protect their child.
His parents are so desperate they will try anything.
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have been in the same position as his parents; and to watch them essentially rubbish GOSH and behave in the way they are is mind boggling for me to watch. Unless you have been in exactly the same position as his parents you cannot predict how you will react.
A parent will go to great lengths to protect their child.
His parents are so desperate they will try anything.
I don't believe that they are protecting their child, despite what they think. Protecting their child would be using critical thinking and common sense to help them understand the prognosis given to them by the best doctors in the world and acting appropriately on that information. I don't believe attempting to go down the experimental treatment route, swaggering into court in the style of a football hooligan ready for a ruck, and bad mouthing GOSH comes under the agenda of protecting their child.
///ajd said:
Given this, the frustration must be how the media have turned this into a circus. On LBC Farage and others have been saying "give him every chance" etc. (Farage is not alone, I only mention him as one I remember).
Are the media not looking at medical advice or considering experts views before pushing all this "give him one more chance" line? It is not fair on GOSH, the child, his parents or anyone.
The "what do you reckon?" media are coming out of this worst of all. Its a disgrace that they are not weighing up the most likely truth and reporting accordingly.
We don't agree on much ///ajd, but I agree with you completely on this. Are the media not looking at medical advice or considering experts views before pushing all this "give him one more chance" line? It is not fair on GOSH, the child, his parents or anyone.
The "what do you reckon?" media are coming out of this worst of all. Its a disgrace that they are not weighing up the most likely truth and reporting accordingly.
I was talking to my partner about this situation over the weekend. We both have children and we both would do anything for them, but neither of us can get our heads around the whole "fighting for Charlie..... give him one more chance.... even 0.00001% hope is enough to justify.... etc" mentality that is evident across the media.
Surely, the media has a responsibility to report the scientific facts, unpalatable as they may be to many? Broadcasting a continuous diet of false hope centred around a "feelings" based narrative is just so wrong.
andymadmak said:
///ajd said:
Given this, the frustration must be how the media have turned this into a circus. On LBC Farage and others have been saying "give him every chance" etc. (Farage is not alone, I only mention him as one I remember).
Are the media not looking at medical advice or considering experts views before pushing all this "give him one more chance" line? It is not fair on GOSH, the child, his parents or anyone.
The "what do you reckon?" media are coming out of this worst of all. Its a disgrace that they are not weighing up the most likely truth and reporting accordingly.
We don't agree on much ///ajd, but I agree with you completely on this. Are the media not looking at medical advice or considering experts views before pushing all this "give him one more chance" line? It is not fair on GOSH, the child, his parents or anyone.
The "what do you reckon?" media are coming out of this worst of all. Its a disgrace that they are not weighing up the most likely truth and reporting accordingly.
I was talking to my partner about this situation over the weekend. We both have children and we both would do anything for them, but neither of us can get our heads around the whole "fighting for Charlie..... give him one more chance.... even 0.00001% hope is enough to justify.... etc" mentality that is evident across the media.
Surely, the media has a responsibility to report the scientific facts, unpalatable as they may be to many? Broadcasting a continuous diet of false hope centred around a "feelings" based narrative is just so wrong.
GreatGranny said:
What agenda are you thinking of?
.......
Is the crux of this case the question over who gets to decide on the course of treatment and therefore the outcome for a child, the family or the doctors? The doctors who have their compassion backed by science and medicine, or the family who's compassion is backed by hope and faith. There are many who's agenda is to erode the reliance on medicine in support of religious faith. .......
jke11y said:
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have been in the same position as his parents; and to watch them essentially rubbish GOSH and behave in the way they are is mind boggling for me to watch.
I don't believe that they are protecting their child, despite what they think. Protecting their child would be using critical thinking and common sense to help them understand the prognosis given to them by the best doctors in the world and acting appropriately on that information. I don't believe attempting to go down the experimental treatment route, swaggering into court in the style of a football hooligan ready for a ruck, and bad mouthing GOSH comes under the agenda of protecting their child.
I wasn't agreeing with their actions just trying to understand why.I don't believe that they are protecting their child, despite what they think. Protecting their child would be using critical thinking and common sense to help them understand the prognosis given to them by the best doctors in the world and acting appropriately on that information. I don't believe attempting to go down the experimental treatment route, swaggering into court in the style of a football hooligan ready for a ruck, and bad mouthing GOSH comes under the agenda of protecting their child.
I think common sense and critical thinking was forgotten a long time ago.
What they need is to be sat down with some one they trust and to be told enough is enough.
They were resigned to letting him go after the last court decision but then the Americans and other loons got involved.
As you said, trying to discredit GOSH and make them out to be the villain is just stupid and potentially damaging to their treatment of other children.
My son has visited GOSH several times in the last 8 years and the care by all staff from Reception right up to Consultants has been faultless.
The Surveyor said:
Is the crux of this case the question over who gets to decide on the course of treatment and therefore the outcome for a child, the family or the doctors? The doctors who have their compassion backed by science and medicine, or the family who's compassion is backed by hope and faith. There are many who's agenda is to erode the reliance on medicine in support of religious faith.
That's an interesting point.It does seem to be the pro-life groups/individuals who are most vocal especially from the USA.
Let's hope the courts make the correct decision.
GreatGranny said:
What agenda are you thinking of?
Unless you have been in exactly the same position as his parents you cannot predict how you will react.
A parent will go to great lengths to protect their child.
His parents are so desperate they will try anything.
They are so vulnerable that certain individuals can take advantage of this for their own agendas.
It's a desperate situation.
I haven't, of course. But if I did I would hope that I would act with a little more clarity of mind and dignity than those two. I agree with exactly what 'jke11y' said, especially regarding their behaviour towards GOSH.Unless you have been in exactly the same position as his parents you cannot predict how you will react.
A parent will go to great lengths to protect their child.
His parents are so desperate they will try anything.
They are so vulnerable that certain individuals can take advantage of this for their own agendas.
It's a desperate situation.
It's worth remembering that the parents are gaining both fame and money while this is continuing. I wouldn't be so callous as to suggest that might be fuelling their fight, but it's not outside the realm of possibility either.
TurbosSuck said:
It's worth remembering that the parents are gaining both fame and money while this is continuing. I wouldn't be so callous as to suggest that might be fuelling their fight, but it's not outside the realm of possibility either.
When its all done and dusted, watch them sell the story to one of the red tops, appear on loose women and the ilk. I cant see them suddenly disappearing into obscurity if they don't get their own way (whatever that is now).GreatGranny said:
jke11y said:
As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I have been in the same position as his parents; and to watch them essentially rubbish GOSH and behave in the way they are is mind boggling for me to watch.
I don't believe that they are protecting their child, despite what they think. Protecting their child would be using critical thinking and common sense to help them understand the prognosis given to them by the best doctors in the world and acting appropriately on that information. I don't believe attempting to go down the experimental treatment route, swaggering into court in the style of a football hooligan ready for a ruck, and bad mouthing GOSH comes under the agenda of protecting their child.
I wasn't agreeing with their actions just trying to understand why.I don't believe that they are protecting their child, despite what they think. Protecting their child would be using critical thinking and common sense to help them understand the prognosis given to them by the best doctors in the world and acting appropriately on that information. I don't believe attempting to go down the experimental treatment route, swaggering into court in the style of a football hooligan ready for a ruck, and bad mouthing GOSH comes under the agenda of protecting their child.
I think common sense and critical thinking was forgotten a long time ago.
What they need is to be sat down with some one they trust and to be told enough is enough.
They were resigned to letting him go after the last court decision but then the Americans and other loons got involved.
As you said, trying to discredit GOSH and make them out to be the villain is just stupid and potentially damaging to their treatment of other children.
My son has visited GOSH several times in the last 8 years and the care by all staff from Reception right up to Consultants has been faultless.
KTF said:
TurbosSuck said:
It's worth remembering that the parents are gaining both fame and money while this is continuing. I wouldn't be so callous as to suggest that might be fuelling their fight, but it's not outside the realm of possibility either.
When its all done and dusted, watch them sell the story to one of the red tops, appear on loose women and the ilk. I cant see them suddenly disappearing into obscurity if they don't get their own way (whatever that is now).GreatGranny said:
That's an interesting point.
It does seem to be the pro-life groups/individuals who are most vocal especially from the USA.
Let's hope the courts make the correct decision.
I've noticed that this is starting to creep in more over here. Not just the American religious bloke who appears to be hanging around the parents. There's become a slow trend towards protesting outside family planning clinics that provide abortions over here too, including video taping the women that come and go. Very intimidating and extremely unpleasant, and generally lead by American-based (and funded) anti-womens-rights groups (I hate to refer to them as "pro-life" as it's quite clear that once you're out of the womb they don't really give much of a toss). There was recently a bunch of them in Cambridge trying to persuade people that abortion was wrong. It wasn't an argument that went down well in a place like Cambridge, even when it turned out that a Christian student from Anglia Ruskin had invited them.It does seem to be the pro-life groups/individuals who are most vocal especially from the USA.
Let's hope the courts make the correct decision.
Personally I like to think that the raging Christian part of the UK is significantly smaller than they expect, and that it's a phase which will soon die out after they realise the British enjoy A) street theatre, B) heckling and C) taking the piss out of the Yanks, far more than they enjoy the Bible and right-wing Christian insanity.
The thing with the "religious Right"... one of the places I reposted Wiccan's info/analysis was Breitbart. Very interesting range of responses. Some happy to get decent gen, some at least willing to engage on the issue of how far "parental rights" should go, but a lot of (mainly) Americans determined to retain their hold on the wrong end of the stick.
Saddest are those using the case to attack the NHS, secure in their ignorance that a baby born in similar circumstances in the US would probably have been dead for months by now.
Saddest are those using the case to attack the NHS, secure in their ignorance that a baby born in similar circumstances in the US would probably have been dead for months by now.
babatunde said:
One of my sons spent time at GOSH from about 2 weeks old, so I guess I'm biased as well, but there is reason it's considered one of the best children's hospitals in the world.
From the 'other side of the fence', few of my friends did their rotas at GOSH, and their description is that you learn more there in 6 months stint that than in some hospitals in a year or two. Absolutely brutal pace, but it looks very very good on a CV or presentation, or whatever it's called these days. Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff