Robert Peston job ad - whites need not apply

[Nothingtoseehere]

wc98 said:

Nothingtoseehere said:

Carl_Manchester said:

In some jobs rules must be broken to give non-white people a foot in the door, I don't mind it personally as long as the industries are targeted and directed as being in need of such (football management is argued as being such an example). Having a more balanced in-take of can bring positive benefits if it reflect the society it represents, sadly many professions do not reflect the composition of modern UK society, they reflect what UK society looked like in the 1960s.

Helping Women in engineering roles is another example positive discrimination that I agree with.

In this specific example of media and the arts, I don't really mind if it means that we get more talented black actors into the industry like Robert Downey Jr :

Edited by Carl_Manchester on Monday 10th July 12:23

may i be the first to offer you the parrot
Wow.
Couldnt disagree more.
Maybe more leading roles should be given to really ugly people?

You can have your parrot back for lousy formatting..
Ugly people are still under represented in Hollywood though.

[Puggit]

I read an appeal on Linkedin for a recruiter to help an organisation interview women for a role in which women are under-represented. A few people were up in arms that it was sexist.

The hiring organisation calmly pointed out that they wanted to *interview* more women, with an interest in hiring more women to even up the numbers - but that the best person for the job was going to win the job. I'm fine with that (albeit with a sneak suspicion that a man would have to beat a woman on the scoring by a considerable margin to win the role).

[hyphen]

Puggit said:

I read an appeal on Linkedin for a recruiter to help an organisation interview women for a role in which women are under-represented. A few people were up in arms that it was sexist.

The hiring organisation calmly pointed out that they wanted to *interview* more women, with an interest in hiring more women to even up the numbers - but that the best person for the job was going to win the job. I'm fine with that (albeit with a sneak suspicion that a man would have to beat a woman on the scoring by a considerable margin to win the role).

It will be the equivalent of "Strong Internal Candidate: Yes" adverts. The whole interview process is setup to help the favoured candidate win against the HR scoring criteria.

Personally I think this is stupid, and obviously not working as they have been doing this kind of thing for years.

If they want to attract applicants from all minorities, then all they need to do is proactively advertise. So if they think Black People don't use Monster.com then along with using Monster.com also advertise it on portals used by this minority.

As long as they see the ad then job done, it is up to them to apply/not apply.

Edited by hyphen on Monday 10th July 14:44

[Evanivitch]

Moonhawk said:

Carl_Manchester said:

Helping Women in engineering roles is another example positive discrimination that I agree with.

Why though - maybe women just like doing other things?

Look at the figures presented on page 50 of this report. Of the 19 subject areas presented - women dominate in all but 6 (and the figures for business are pretty close even though men just pip it) They also dominate in higher education overall - with women now making up ~30% more of the undergraduate and post graduate population than men.

http://www.hepi.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/B...

Why no affirmative action for men in the 13 subject areas where women dominate - or why no push to equalise the number of university entrants?

Also - why just desirable subjects/careers like engineering. If we must encourage more women into engineering for 'equality reasons' then why no push to get more women is stty or dangerous jobs like waste collection or mining for the same reason? Surely a woman's perspective is just as important in these roles too?

Equality should be about equality of opportunity - not equality of outcome.

Your race/gender shouldn't hinder you from applying or being successful at a role - but at the same time, to expect every company and every role to reflect a perfect cross section of society is IMO unrealistic.

Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 10th July 13:14

Firstly, I don't actually know an engineer that has a problem with encouraging women into Engineering careers. Spending your days surrounded by just blokes or the only women in the office being non-engineers is tedious. Several of my peers are female, and we have apprentices and middle managers too. We don't yet have any in senior Engineering management, though some have moved to PM and continued.

Secondly, in a lot of industries there's still an "old boys club" that is very influential in how you progress and the opportunities available. Law is a very good example of this and finance. I'm not sure I've come across such a thing with women. Schools and hospitals often have no lack of senior male staff.

I do however agree to an extent. As an engineer I'm frequently exposed to the drive for more female engineers, but when I ask nurses about drives to encourage more men into their career I understand there's no equivalent. But that is still better than Engineering by a % point or 2.

[Tonberry]

Moonhawk said:

But surely that starts from a false assumption - that in the absence of discrimination, the industries in question would mirror the ethnic or gender cross section of section of society.

I don't think anyone is expecting an exact mirror cross section of society but where we can clearly see an increasing number of ethnic minority graduates failing to filter into their respective industry, surely questions need to be asked.

[amusingduck]

Tonberry said:

Moonhawk said:

But surely that starts from a false assumption - that in the absence of discrimination, the industries in question would mirror the ethnic or gender cross section of section of society.

I don't think anyone is expecting an exact mirror cross section of society but where we can clearly see an increasing number of ethnic minority graduates failing to filter into their respective industry, surely questions need to be asked.

Source?

I've had a search, but I'm not finding anything.

[VolvoT5]

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

Yep... one example of where a minority group is being given an opportunity only for them and everyone is outraged... totally ignoring the direct/indirect discrimination ethnic minorities face in the jobs market every single day. And as if there aren't enough options for 'white' people anyway.

Of course all discrimination is wrong and against the law but there are exceptions when it can be waved as in this example. There are jobs out there that are women only as well, nobody moans about that do they?

[Loyly]

This disgusting racism has no place in our society and should not be legal.

[oyster]

princealbert23 said:

Puggit said:

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

That's not the point - the point is that the advert is racist. Care to dispel that?

He wouldn't wish to. He is simply looking for a place to demonstrate his prejudices.

No prejudice from me. Merely an observation that for those of us lucky enough to be born white and wealthy in the UK to moan about an effort to get less lucky people into jobs is rather distasteful.

I don't necessarily agree with positive discrimination by the way. I just think it's very crass to read this thread and see people suggesting that positive discrimination is in any way as bad as negative discrimination.

[Tonberry]

amusingduck said:

Tonberry said:

Moonhawk said:

But surely that starts from a false assumption - that in the absence of discrimination, the industries in question would mirror the ethnic or gender cross section of section of society.

I don't think anyone is expecting an exact mirror cross section of society but where we can clearly see an increasing number of ethnic minority graduates failing to filter into their respective industry, surely questions need to be asked.

Source?

I've had a search, but I'm not finding anything.

https://www.ft.com/content/3548ef66-025b-11e6-99cb-83242733f755?mhq5j=e2

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/15/ba...

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/30/...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39302804

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mid...

[princealbert23]

oyster said:

princealbert23 said:

Puggit said:

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

That's not the point - the point is that the advert is racist. Care to dispel that?

He wouldn't wish to. He is simply looking for a place to demonstrate his prejudices.

No prejudice from me. Merely an observation that for those of us lucky enough to be born white and wealthy in the UK to moan about an effort to get less lucky people into jobs is rather distasteful.

I don't necessarily agree with positive discrimination by the way. I just think it's very crass to read this thread and see people suggesting that positive discrimination is in any way as bad as negative discrimination.

Why do you imagine only white and wealthy people are posting here? You haven't got a clue as to the circumstances of the posters who disagree with the advert.

[VolvoT5]

Tonberry said:

https://www.ft.com/content/3548ef66-025b-11e6-99cb...

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/15/ba...

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/30/...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39302804

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mid...

And this type of thing as well; if you don't have a 'white' sounding name you are less likely to even get to interview stage whether it is conscious or unconscious bias it is still there. Hence I can't really get that excited about the odd job being advertised for ethnic minority candidates only, especially when there is reasonable justification for doing so.

[Charlie Hoskins]

oyster said:

princealbert23 said:

Puggit said:

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

That's not the point - the point is that the advert is racist. Care to dispel that?

He wouldn't wish to. He is simply looking for a place to demonstrate his prejudices.

No prejudice from me. Merely an observation that for those of us lucky enough to be born white and wealthy in the UK to moan about an effort to get less lucky people into jobs is rather distasteful.

I don't necessarily agree with positive discrimination by the way. I just think it's very crass to read this thread and see people suggesting that positive discrimination is in any way as bad as negative discrimination.

What about a campaign to assist the working class white poor into these jobs ? Or did 'the papers that you read' convince you that they all don't want to work anyway ?

[princealbert23]

Tonberry said:

https://www.ft.com/content/3548ef66-025b-11e6-99cb...

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/15/ba...

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/30/...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39302804

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mid...

Have you got anything from some less biased sources?

[oyster]

Charlie Hoskins said:

oyster said:

princealbert23 said:

Puggit said:

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

That's not the point - the point is that the advert is racist. Care to dispel that?

He wouldn't wish to. He is simply looking for a place to demonstrate his prejudices.

No prejudice from me. Merely an observation that for those of us lucky enough to be born white and wealthy in the UK to moan about an effort to get less lucky people into jobs is rather distasteful.

I don't necessarily agree with positive discrimination by the way. I just think it's very crass to read this thread and see people suggesting that positive discrimination is in any way as bad as negative discrimination.

What about a campaign to assist the working class white poor into these jobs ? Or did 'the papers that you read' convince you that they all don't want to work anyway ?

I don't read the papers much. When I do it tends to be the Telegraph. Can't see the relevance in any case.

As to your question - maybe the white working class DO need more support like this.

[amusingduck]

Tonberry said:

amusingduck said:

Tonberry said:

Moonhawk said:

But surely that starts from a false assumption - that in the absence of discrimination, the industries in question would mirror the ethnic or gender cross section of section of society.

I don't think anyone is expecting an exact mirror cross section of society but where we can clearly see an increasing number of ethnic minority graduates failing to filter into their respective industry, surely questions need to be asked.

Source?

I've had a search, but I'm not finding anything.

https://www.ft.com/content/3548ef66-025b-11e6-99cb-83242733f755?mhq5j=e2

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/apr/15/ba...

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/jan/30/...

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-39302804

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/mid...

I was hoping more for statistics, rather than news articles.

Perhaps this goes some way to explain the gap?

universitiesuk.ac.uk said:

The qualifications awarded to students vary by ethnicity (Figure 21), with 70.8% of white
first degree qualifying students leaving with first or upper second class degrees in 2013–
14 against 56.8% of BME students doing the same. Analysis by the Equality Challenge
Unit (ECU) does show a small reduction in the gap between white and BME student
degree attainment over recent years but it remains considerable, particularly for black
qualifying students.

from here - http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/policy-and-analysi...

[Charlie Hoskins]

oyster said:

Charlie Hoskins said:

oyster said:

princealbert23 said:

Puggit said:

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

That's not the point - the point is that the advert is racist. Care to dispel that?

He wouldn't wish to. He is simply looking for a place to demonstrate his prejudices.

No prejudice from me. Merely an observation that for those of us lucky enough to be born white and wealthy in the UK to moan about an effort to get less lucky people into jobs is rather distasteful.

I don't necessarily agree with positive discrimination by the way. I just think it's very crass to read this thread and see people suggesting that positive discrimination is in any way as bad as negative discrimination.

What about a campaign to assist the working class white poor into these jobs ? Or did 'the papers that you read' convince you that they all don't want to work anyway ?

I don't read the papers much. When I do it tends to be the Telegraph. Can't see the relevance in any case.

As to your question - maybe the white working class DO need more support like this.

Pre-fking-cisely !

[plenty]

princealbert23 said:

Why do you imagine only white and wealthy people are posting here? You haven't got a clue as to the circumstances of the posters who disagree with the advert.

The reactions in question are typical of people who do not acknowledge white privilege, who typically comprise conservative white people.

[voyds9]

oyster said:

Ahhhh, another thread where wealthy, white males can rant about how hard they've had life.

I hope you are not trying to define me.

I self identify as a deity so please address me as god.

[anonymous-user]

oyster said:

No prejudice from me. Merely an observation that for those of us lucky enough to be born white and wealthy in the UK to moan about an effort to get less lucky people into jobs is rather distasteful.

Classic. The advert is for non white, UK nationals; it does not exclude the wealthy or UK born, just whites. You are assuming the applicants will not have been born in the UK and are unlucky because they are not white. Looking a little wobbly up there on that horse. In any event whilst such a scheme might get one lucky kids foot in the door, rightly or wrongly, I suspect it will breed far more resentment than admiration when the kid goes on to do well.