New diesel and petrol cars banned from UK roads by 2030
Discussion
xjay1337 said:
I think you are confusing "speed" with "fun".
My car is not the fastest thing in the world. But the noise that goes along with it is half the fun. If it was just as fast but totally silent, then it would be boring.
I'm not sure I agree. I love driving my (PH standard) MX5, but the noise is a fraction of the fun for me. The sense of speed, flow of bends, sliding on a wet roundabout, etc top the requirement for noise.My car is not the fastest thing in the world. But the noise that goes along with it is half the fun. If it was just as fast but totally silent, then it would be boring.
otolith said:
jsf said:
JD said:
I think the market will get to 100% EV only sales long before 2040.
Who on earth, in say 15 years time, would spcifically choose a car that cost more to run, tax, service and that you have to go out of your way to top up with fuel before you can use it?
Well a lot of people do that now.Who on earth, in say 15 years time, would spcifically choose a car that cost more to run, tax, service and that you have to go out of your way to top up with fuel before you can use it?
I run a daily driver that eats fuel, costs more to insure and tax and I will only use Shell V-Power in, rather than an ecobox. I suspect most people on this website make choices that are far from logical purely from the economic point of view.
xjay1337 said:
I think you are confusing "speed" with "fun".
My car is not the fastest thing in the world. But the noise that goes along with it is half the fun. If it was just as fast but totally silent, then it would be boring.
If you were talking about something sonorous I might be in agreement, but if you are talking about the 4 cylinder diesel in your thread, I think you are hands down mental if the sound it makes is half the fun!My car is not the fastest thing in the world. But the noise that goes along with it is half the fun. If it was just as fast but totally silent, then it would be boring.
21TonyK said:
Not sure if this has already been mentioned.
Surely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
A battery station, with stacks of 100 Lithium Ion car battery packs, charged, ready to go.Surely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
Ummm that will have the Health and Safety bods twitching.
Imagine if that lot went up, damn it would take out a small town with the explosion.
Mr2Mike said:
Maxym said:
227bhp said:
You'd be quite stupid to poo poo the idea and think that they/we (humans) won't find a way around all the issues raised.
People were aghast and worried when steam was invented and kicked up a fuss, then they moaned when the tram took a slice, then again when diesel and petrol engines took over.
Where are those lovely steam locos now? Oh yeah, they are in museums.
You will not stop the march of progress, end of.
How much has renewable energy progressed in recent years?
And that is 2 years out of date.
It's coming, get used to it.
That graphic seems to say that about 85% of leccy generation uses renewable sources. Is that right? And is that UK? (I'm not sure about 'other bio-energy' and 'landfill gas' being renewable, mind you.)People were aghast and worried when steam was invented and kicked up a fuss, then they moaned when the tram took a slice, then again when diesel and petrol engines took over.
Where are those lovely steam locos now? Oh yeah, they are in museums.
You will not stop the march of progress, end of.
How much has renewable energy progressed in recent years?
And that is 2 years out of date.
It's coming, get used to it.
It's particularly disingenuous that they have chosen units TWh which for the chosen sources have totalled somewhere in the range just below 100, therefore as above some just assume this is a % measure. Totally designed to deceive.
I can't be bothered to find the numbers to redraw that graph including all the excluded sources so here's something that shows a more honest picture.
The first graph essentially eliminates the lower 5 bands and just plots the upper 3, sort of best way I can describe it.
So, now consider that the peak demand is said to be about 60GW, and this announcement would add about 30GW on top of that, really tells how out there is Gove's claim of we can do this with renewables.
And for one more thing, before anyone starts down the, but we'll charge the cars off peak, and if required pull the power back from the car batteries, unless battery technology improves enormously so that all those extra high power cycles don't significantly reduce life then you can poke that idea from my perspective. Thankfully I won't be driving then. Sympathies to the youngsters, this is one area, where to our shame my generation and others have really screwed this up for you due to consistent can kicking. We've consistently told the politicians to act and they haven't, lead a horse to water syndrome etc.
21TonyK said:
Not sure if this has already been mentioned.
Surely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
Sounds good in theory. A colleague tells me Tesla already do this? Its seems the did a pilot, but have quietly dropped itSurely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
http://www.teslarati.com/tesla-shuts-down-battery-...
What would the cost be? It's essentially like taking an empty Calor Gas canister in, coming away with a full one.
That's fine for the Powerfully Built Company Directors of PH, who always brim up their gas guzzlers with 100 quids worth of unleaded, but this Government seems entirely blinkered to the fact that there are lots of people in the UK who fuel their cars with a fiver here and a tenner there. This tech would just not work for them.
In regard to on street charging demand exceeding supply, I'm pretty sure this crackpot scheme will lead to us seeing the first 'Charge Rage' stabbing in an inner city, where someone unplugs someone else's car, "coz I need some charge, innit, bruv!"
MartG said:
Odd that they announce this just a week after cancelling the rail electrification programme, leaving most of the UK dependent on diesel powered trains for the forseeable future...
Not very consistent, are they
Polite!Not very consistent, are they
A clueless self-service clusterf
k of asseholes may be a more appropriate description.The Government of the day have to be seen to be doing something. What matters if it doesn't actually happen in 23 years time, there won't be many around to accept responsibility for failure.
It's only politics after all and we will be out of the EU in a couple of years or so, apparently.
It's only politics after all and we will be out of the EU in a couple of years or so, apparently.
21TonyK said:
Not sure if this has already been mentioned.
Surely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
Someone tried that, now they just sit abandoned at the side of the roadSurely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
https://www.fastcompany.com/3028159/a-broken-place...
This is interesting:
http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2017/03/06/air-po...
I googled "air pollution early deaths uk" before you say anything.
http://energydesk.greenpeace.org/2017/03/06/air-po...
I googled "air pollution early deaths uk" before you say anything.
V8 Fettler said:
jsf said:
V8 Fettler said:
jsf said:
V8 Fettler said:
jsf said:
Murph7355 said:
it's not as if nuclear can just be turned off when not being used
Of course it can and is.All a nuclear power station does is heat water up to drive a steam turbine generator, you generate the heat by locating radioactive materials near to each other which creates nuclear fission, this creates a heat source to boil the water. If you want to switch it off, you move the position of the control rods so the nuclear fission process stops, which stops generating heat, which stops driving the generator.
They are incredibly simple devices if you ignore all the nuclear waste and safety issues. It's just a massive kettle feeding a steam turbine.
Historically, a 660MW generator could take up to 6 hours to reach rated output, varied according to start-up temperature. Possible that modern designs have improved on this, but I doubt it.
When you remove the control rods, the heat generation drops rapidly, but how much the temperature drops is a function of how hot they were prior to the shutdown. The heat generated after an hour is about 1.5%, and after a day is around 0.5% of the on power heat.
It takes about 72 hours to restart a modern reactor to full power, a lot of this time is down to managing metal fatigue issues and water droplet management, rather than the time to bring the nuclear reaction back online. If you don't build up the heat gradually in the primary stage you get metal fatigue issues in the high pressure vessels, the steam secondary stage needs to purge water droplets, otherwise the turbine blades can be destroyed by the water droplets hitting the blades at high speed.
The concept of using any current UK nuclear power station for anything other than baseload is bizarre.
My comment re: "nuclear = baseload only" is not quite correct, nuclear is also useful for powering pumped storage for peak lopping.
The focus on diesel vs petrol vs electric is probably inevitable, but it misses the fundamental point: regardless of fuel type, why is it that thousands of people sit in traffic on the M4 etc, and what can be done to give them alternatives?
To use the M4 as an example – I know people who drive into London every day from Berkshire towns because the alternative (getting the train) has a couple of drawbacks:
- It is hugely oversubscribed. Getting somewhere to sit is pretty much impossible from somewhere like Maidenhead.
- Parking at the station is damn hard. You either get there before 07:00 and/or you pay through the nose for it.
- Overall it is an expensive venture. The train is expensive, the parking is expensive and the train at the other end is expensive
This will be an interesting case study, because they’re just about to wallop a huge amount of new capacity on this line. Rather than hurling money at daft council initiatives, how about:
- Making parking at the commuter stations cheap/free for rail users. If people are driving up the M4, reach J11 or 8/9 and think duh, I can get parked here, and be in Liverpool St in 30 minutes, they will abandon their cars in droves.
- Make it reasonably priced
This sort of approach has been proven in Central London. I’m a proper petrolhead (got 8 Alfas for god’s sake) but I’d never dream of driving in Central London – public transport is far better and easier.
Carrot, not stick …. might get some votes and acceptance. Unfortunately, once they let the councils at it , it will all be “stick to move the problem away from my patch” rather than anything integrated,
To use the M4 as an example – I know people who drive into London every day from Berkshire towns because the alternative (getting the train) has a couple of drawbacks:
- It is hugely oversubscribed. Getting somewhere to sit is pretty much impossible from somewhere like Maidenhead.
- Parking at the station is damn hard. You either get there before 07:00 and/or you pay through the nose for it.
- Overall it is an expensive venture. The train is expensive, the parking is expensive and the train at the other end is expensive
This will be an interesting case study, because they’re just about to wallop a huge amount of new capacity on this line. Rather than hurling money at daft council initiatives, how about:
- Making parking at the commuter stations cheap/free for rail users. If people are driving up the M4, reach J11 or 8/9 and think duh, I can get parked here, and be in Liverpool St in 30 minutes, they will abandon their cars in droves.
- Make it reasonably priced
This sort of approach has been proven in Central London. I’m a proper petrolhead (got 8 Alfas for god’s sake) but I’d never dream of driving in Central London – public transport is far better and easier.
Carrot, not stick …. might get some votes and acceptance. Unfortunately, once they let the councils at it , it will all be “stick to move the problem away from my patch” rather than anything integrated,
I don't know who mods this, but there's now at least 3 (maybe more) threads directly relating to the news announcement, it may be an idea to merge them all int this one as it's the biggest, assuming this ability still exists, alternatively close the others and post a link to this one.
PurpleTurtle said:
21TonyK said:
Not sure if this has already been mentioned.
Surely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
Sounds good in theory.Surely the charging issue can be solved by having battery packs that are swapped mechanically at "filling stations". 3 or 4 standard size units covering all cars and manufacturers. Swap your empty battery pack for a full one paying a charge appropriate to the cost of the energy in the new battery.
Bit like buying petrol or diesel.
Seems too simple an idea.
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Superchargers aren't needed for routine charging. Most people's cars sit unused for 95% of their time, and don't go very far each day, so if they can spend most of that time on charge the rate of charging doesn't need to be high. Street light and parking place charging would be slow, top-up. You'd only really use superchargers for journeys beyond the car's range.rxe said:
Carrot, not stick …. might get some votes and acceptance. Unfortunately, once they let the councils at it , it will all be “stick to move the problem away from my patch” rather than anything integrated,
When it comes to motoring we always feel the stick, we've never tasted the carrot...I don't think this is a bad aspiration; I'd happily drive an EV with a decent range that was priced competitively. We're not there yet.
The problem, IMO, is that which ever Governments are in power in the next 25 years, they'll make a pigs ear of things. Like they almost always do.
And the taxpayer will carry the can, again.
Ps. Anyone that thinks EVs will be, relatively, less expensive to run in the medium to long term is deluding themselves. A huge proportion of the cost of motoring is taxation. Depreciation also looms large. Neither will be less than now. Fuel cost, ex taxation, is almost negligible.
The problem, IMO, is that which ever Governments are in power in the next 25 years, they'll make a pigs ear of things. Like they almost always do.
And the taxpayer will carry the can, again.
Ps. Anyone that thinks EVs will be, relatively, less expensive to run in the medium to long term is deluding themselves. A huge proportion of the cost of motoring is taxation. Depreciation also looms large. Neither will be less than now. Fuel cost, ex taxation, is almost negligible.
With cars being too expensive to buy except for the wealthy it will be a perfect tool to control movement.
It currently takes me around thirty minutes to cover 22 miles to work (I work permanent nights).
Does anyone think that the infrastructure will ever be there for shift workers?
By the way,I work for a company that supplies parts for a zero emissions vehicle company,the irony is that I will have to try and find a position locally at a lower rate of pay!
The real reason in my mind this has been promoted is to hide the fact that there are too many people in the western world and this will only get worse as time moves on.A simple fact is that the more people there are the more pollution of all types there will be.
It currently takes me around thirty minutes to cover 22 miles to work (I work permanent nights).
Does anyone think that the infrastructure will ever be there for shift workers?
By the way,I work for a company that supplies parts for a zero emissions vehicle company,the irony is that I will have to try and find a position locally at a lower rate of pay!
The real reason in my mind this has been promoted is to hide the fact that there are too many people in the western world and this will only get worse as time moves on.A simple fact is that the more people there are the more pollution of all types there will be.
The only solution to pollution and all it's associated ste is another huge world war to get rid say of 75% of the human population
What are the governments outlook in 20 years for population lack of food stuffs and no work as its all gone autonomous, humans will die out from there own shear ignorance and laziness
te is another huge world war to get rid say of 75% of the human population What are the governments outlook in 20 years for population lack of food stuffs and no work as its all gone autonomous, humans will die out from there own shear ignorance and laziness
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