New diesel and petrol cars banned from UK roads by 2030
Discussion
REALIST123 said:
To rely on history, especially that told in Acts of Parliament, can be very misleading.
But, no, I wouldn't be happy working as you say and I'm in full agreement that diesel/petrol vehicles should be restricted therein. I just think that a more common sense approach should be taken for those who don't have to live in these toilets and need more than a little box with a range of 100 miles.
As for your earlier patronising comments about Luddites, you really shouldn't be so presumptuous. I'd make a bet that my profile, despite having a diesel and a petrol car, is a lot greener than yours. I'd also bet that I've invested more in the last 10 years in personal green initiatives than you have.
Whatever, I would also have an electric car if there was one available at a competitive price, to rival the cars I'm driving now. Unfortunately there isn't.
I don't disagree. As noted by the thread title I am looking to 2040, not today. Most EVs have a range >100 miles today.But, no, I wouldn't be happy working as you say and I'm in full agreement that diesel/petrol vehicles should be restricted therein. I just think that a more common sense approach should be taken for those who don't have to live in these toilets and need more than a little box with a range of 100 miles.
As for your earlier patronising comments about Luddites, you really shouldn't be so presumptuous. I'd make a bet that my profile, despite having a diesel and a petrol car, is a lot greener than yours. I'd also bet that I've invested more in the last 10 years in personal green initiatives than you have.
Whatever, I would also have an electric car if there was one available at a competitive price, to rival the cars I'm driving now. Unfortunately there isn't.
I have no idea on your green initiatives, but good for you. I have polluting cars that do almost no miles.
fblm said:
Vaud said:
I think the opposite. A higher risk pool vs a lower risk pool. Insurance is an easy market to exit.
Human drivers will likely cost more to insure than AI, I agree, but that doesn't mean human drivers will be priced off the road. The higher risk pool (human drivers) will likely become a lower risk than they are now as the better AI drivers avoid the dumb meaty drivers, agreed? Insurers don't especially want to exit the insurance market, agreed? Insurers will likely have lower claims costs than they do now, agreed? If they don't lower their prices they will generate an excess profit and others will enter the market, or their competitors will undercut them. Which bit do you disagree with? Why will a lower risk increase cost?turbobloke said:
What massive evidence? There is no such thing unless that definition includes smoke 
and mirrors.
Do you think NoX and particulates are good for you? and mirrors.DEFRA on NoX
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploa...
WHO
http://www.euro.who.int/__data/assets/pdf_file/000...
Turn the question back around - if we could have roads free of NoX and particulate pollution, would people be healthier or not?
otolith said:
The positions aren't irreconcilable. A mixed pool of human and autonomous drivers may mean that risks are lower for humans and their premiums fall relative to sharing the roads with more humans, however what is likely to discourage human drivers is the difference between the cost of insuring a machine you drive and one that drives itself. So a new 18 year old car user finds that his insurance to drive has fallen from £2000 to £1000 because the new autonomous cars are better at avoiding his mistakes - but he's got a choice of paying £1000 and taking driving lessons and a test, or just continuing to be driven around by a car like the family car that has been driving him around since he was a kid. That, I think, is what will kill self-driving - young people getting all of the practical benefits without the cost and responsibility. If they never learn to drive themselves, they'll never know how much fun it can be,
It's possible and the market will decide, ultimately. I suspect the 18 year old will still bend cars more that the autonomous one - but to be fair I am mixing the autonomous and non-diesel/petrol arguments, though the changes are happening in parallel.Vaud said:
Nothingtoseehere said:
Vaud said:
But would you be happy working next to a busy stop/start main road with the windows open?
I have.I died six times.
Get a grip and man up.
Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and the City worst for killer pollution.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-wes...
Kensington & Chelsea has UK's highest life expectancy
http://www.swlondoner.co.uk/kensington-chelsea-has...
Kensington and Chelsea may have the highest life expectancy as an overall borough but Harrow Road in Westminster has the UK’s highest life expectancy, with an average age of over 97.
The three most polluted Boroughs, the worst for "killer pollution" outdoors have the highest life expectancy in the UK.
Vaud said:
It's possible and the market will decide, ultimately. I suspect the 18 year old will still bend cars more that the autonomous one - but to be fair I am mixing the autonomous and non-diesel/petrol arguments, though the changes are happening in parallel.
Yes, it's an almost entirely different argument.I would not say no to one of these (the thing Hammond recently nearly killed himself in)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvHCtaIrkEs
(wouldn't trust an 18 year old in one)
JD said:
wsurfa said:
1 too many beers to do the maths properly - but that would mean about a 300-400kw requirement, which would mean a very serious increase in volts/amps.
600v and 600 amps - that would be massively insulated and pretty big cross section - can't imagine it would be much fun to handle. Plus shoving that fat a pipe into a bunch of Li-ion batteries would create a bunch of heat, and reduce their lifetime by quite a lot I'd guess.
These chargers are not theoretical, there are thousands of them already installed.600v and 600 amps - that would be massively insulated and pretty big cross section - can't imagine it would be much fun to handle. Plus shoving that fat a pipe into a bunch of Li-ion batteries would create a bunch of heat, and reduce their lifetime by quite a lot I'd guess.
Whilst they are not quite as fast as stated they can do 170 miles in 30 minutes, it's 135kW and I don't think the cable is as hefty as a petrol hose;)
A bit like the sub 6.45 min GTR round the ring, when questioned, we meant sub 7.10...riiighhhttt
turbobloke said:
Love actually is all around, so is evidence and data...and amusingly, so are headlines like these which are based on data.
Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and the City worst for killer pollution.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-wes...
Kensington & Chelsea has UK's highest life expectancy
http://www.swlondoner.co.uk/kensington-chelsea-has...
Kensington and Chelsea may have the highest life expectancy as an overall borough but Harrow Road in Westminster has the UK’s highest life expectancy, with an average age of over 97.
The three most polluted Boroughs, the worst for "killer pollution" outdoors have the highest life expectancy in the UK.
Beware of newspapers use of data... they are trying to tell a story; biased, as our our politicians. Independent data is hard to trust in a era of spin. WHO and Defra are reasonable sources?Westminster, Kensington & Chelsea and the City worst for killer pollution.
http://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/revealed-wes...
Kensington & Chelsea has UK's highest life expectancy
http://www.swlondoner.co.uk/kensington-chelsea-has...
Kensington and Chelsea may have the highest life expectancy as an overall borough but Harrow Road in Westminster has the UK’s highest life expectancy, with an average age of over 97.
The three most polluted Boroughs, the worst for "killer pollution" outdoors have the highest life expectancy in the UK.
What are the downsides to largely removing particulate and NoX pollution from our streets?
exportman said:
How will the government cope without all the fuel duty it presently raises from Petrol and Diesel
It's only about £30bn, that's just 1 or 2 police a year/epoch/second or something [/Abbot mode]c 4-5% of total receipts I'd guess or about 25% of the NHS - who'd notice....;)
Vaud said:
Beware of newspapers use of data... they are trying to tell a story; biased, as our our politicians. Independent data is hard to trust in a era of spin. WHO and Defra are reasonable sources?
What are the downsides to largely removing particulate and NoX pollution from our streets?
Ok, head over to the British Lung Foundation and have a look at their very clear data on Asthma, COPD and Lung Cancer.What are the downsides to largely removing particulate and NoX pollution from our streets?
In London, surely everyone is dying like flies. Oh, actually, they're not. London has nearly the lowest rates of these diseases when compared to pollution hotspots like the Scottish Highlands and the South West...
exportman said:
How will the government cope without all the fuel duty it presently raises from Petrol and Diesel
Electric vehicles don't reduce pollution, they transfer it to power stations so, with so-called intelligent metering, juice used to charge a car may well have the fossil fuel component used to levy a tax for the pollution transferred. Any concessions for electric vehicles in terms of congestion charging and car tax will be phased out. With carbon credit card pre-set limits at hermit level (and as private transport isn't essential, regardless of how useless public transport is where many people outside major cities live) buyers would have to purchase additional credits - from frugal consumers i.e. poorer people who have no means of using their allowance - in order to buy an electric car in the first place. The government of the day will be as cynical and hypocritical as they need to be.Vaud said:
Beware of newspapers use of data... they are trying to tell a story; biased, as our our politicians. Independent data is hard to trust in a era of spin.
You appear to be unaware o the difference between primary and seconday sources. The data is for example ONS data. Any data from studies based on the epidemiological fallacy is worthless, but you swallow this information pollution willingly. Editors of academic journals know about the epidemiological fallacy but still publish dreck.
For bias, take a look in the mirror.
Vaud said:
What are the downsides to largely removing particulate and NoX pollution from our streets?
NOx is a naturally occurring gas in the atmosphere, so if you're referring (for example) to literally 'largely removing' NOx from the outdoor air that we breathe then you'll find it impossible.If so you'll need to chop down trees and pave over lawns and outlaw any burning of vegetation. Then get all other countries to do the same, or find a way of controlling the weather so pollution from elsewhere doesn't arrive here. Best of luck
Presumably you haven't read previous posts too closely when they contain information that destroys the dogma you base your position on. Trees and lawns and grassy spaces and burning vegetation in combination generate more NOx than combined transport and industrial sources. Do you really want to get rid of trees and lawns and public grassy spaces e.g. parks to address the dodgy health stats in publications that use the epidemiological fallacy?
fblm said:
crankedup said:
The race is now definitely on for the manufacturers, techi nerds and designers to develop those tasty cars of the future. The future looks rosy.
I look forward to receiving my electricity ration card.They best start sorting out infracture first to cope with all these electric cars......like thats going to happen.
Their kite already has holes in it, just put it away for another slow news day.
Right so there are say 300 of you living in a tower block (like grenfell) and you all have a car Will there have to be 300 cables hanging out of every flat to charge the cars. This will never happen they haven't thought it through at all. Those of us that will still be around have 23 years to get a petrolhead government and stop this nonesence
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