New diesel and petrol cars banned from UK roads by 2030

[rxe]

Lily the Pink said:

All-electric tractors are available - at a price. Best suited to autonomous operation in large fields, I guess. Some of them use an umbilical connection which sounds awkward. Probably also feasible for small yard tractors which don't do many hours in a day or cover long distances away from a power point. Not so sure about suitability for tasks like hedge-cutting - a long way from home with large power requirements.

Edited to add link : https://www.deere.co.uk/en/agriculture/future-of-f...

Edited by Lily the Pink on Saturday 5th December 10:59

Problem is that the figures are full of twaddle.

The compact tractor is claimed to run for 8 hours. It has a 30 kw battery. Stick a 20HP PTO device on the back (say, a mower), and the battery will be flat in 2 hours, even if the tractor is stationary.

The whole point of tractors is that they do “everything”. No one is going to buy a new “yard” tractor - that’s what the 20 year old tractor is for. If you’re doing real grown up farming, then your tractors are going to be pulling 18 hour days at certain times of the year. More likely they’ll be doing 24 hour days with 2 shifts of operators.

All of these things depend on the use case. I’ve got a 54 volt DeWalt Angle grinder, For lopping the heads off bolts, or a small cut, it’s as good as mains one, It should be, it cost about 10x as much. But if you stick a wire brush in it to clean up a load of steel stock, it is useless - it’s out of power in 10 minutes.

[ninja-lewis]

NMNeil said:

robinessex said:

What ICE vehicles will be almost impossible to replace with electric power. I'm thinking of military, farming and construction.

I'm sure the military will be exempt, as will farming, but they will be loaded with even more emission control devices.

The military are actively researching and trialing alternative fuels for military applications including combat vehicles and self-sufficient forward operating bases.

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/...

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2020/09/21/army-g...

https://interestingengineering.com/defense-goes-re...

They're not just doing this for fluffy green reasons. There are tactical advantages to quieter vehicles and simpler maintenance but most significant of all are the implications of reduced fuel consumption for the logistics system. In Afghanistan the cost of getting a gallon of fuel to the frontlines was up to $400/gallon, not to the mention the lives lost in resupply convoys.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-cost-of-gas-at-a...

RegMolehusband said:

I doubt very much that we will ever see a battery powered 40 tonne truck grinding up Shap on the M6 or over the M62 Manchester to Leeds. They might have a reasonable range cruising at 50mph on the flat but once they are asked to apply maximum tractive effort to the road surface for 20 minutes at a time I bet that range is obliterated.

Edited by RegMolehusband on Saturday 5th December 16:37

You're missing regenerative braking. Unlike ICE vehicles, BEVs can recover range lost on uphill sections as they descend the downhill side.

https://constructionclimatechallenge.com/2019/08/2...

A Tesla Semi was spotted load testing with an approx 34 tonne load at the summit of Donner Pass (7,000 feet). They're reportedly using the prototypes to transport battery packs from the Nevada Gigafactory to Fremont over the same route (about 250 miles).

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29449/tesla-semi-pro...

More importantly for PH: Tesla advertise the Semi as capable of maintaining 60mph while climbing 5% grades fully loaded. So instead of being stuck behind 30mph elephant racing on the steeper parts of the M42, we'll just be stuck behind 56mph elephants!

[wisbech]

MG CHRIS said:

skyrover said:

robinessex said:

What ICE vehicles will be almost impossible to replace with electric power. I'm thinking of military, farming and construction.

Don't forget small engine equipment such as chainsaws, hedge trimmers, lawnmowers, wood chippers, stump grinders etc

The battery powered stuff is just not good enough for sustained commercial use.

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 5th December 11:04

I know its not hugely relevant but if you look into a workshop 5-10 years ago everything would be run of air, now the only thing you use air is for pumping tyres up. You have whole range of battery powered tools the milwaukiie range is massive even with inch gun with over 2000nm of torque. That was unthinkable a few years ago, My half inch gun will last all week on a charge. I can well imagine enough change for most daily object to go battery powered in the next 5 years.

Again, off topic but one of the highest ROI projects at my old airline was buying battery vacuum cleaners. Cut minutes off cleaning times (and so turnaround times of the aircraft), due to not needing to plug in, and other cleaners not needing to worry about tripping over the power cords.

[paua]

wisbech said:

MG CHRIS said:

skyrover said:

robinessex said:

What ICE vehicles will be almost impossible to replace with electric power. I'm thinking of military, farming and construction.

Don't forget small engine equipment such as chainsaws, hedge trimmers, lawnmowers, wood chippers, stump grinders etc

The battery powered stuff is just not good enough for sustained commercial use.

Edited by skyrover on Saturday 5th December 11:04

I know its not hugely relevant but if you look into a workshop 5-10 years ago everything would be run of air, now the only thing you use air is for pumping tyres up. You have whole range of battery powered tools the milwaukiie range is massive even with inch gun with over 2000nm of torque. That was unthinkable a few years ago, My half inch gun will last all week on a charge. I can well imagine enough change for most daily object to go battery powered in the next 5 years.

Again, off topic but one of the highest ROI projects at my old airline was buying battery vacuum cleaners. Cut minutes off cleaning times (and so turnaround times of the aircraft), due to not needing to plug in, and other cleaners not needing to worry about tripping over the power cords.

5-6 yrs ago I bought the latest, greatest dyson handheld Li batt vacuum for picking up insects etc off windowsills, carpet edges to save the effort of getting out the proper vacuum-cleaner for small jobs. Within a year , the batt won't hold a charge long enough to pick up more than 3 flies. Cost to replace batt is close to cost of new unit. I still have it, charge it for a couple hours, suck up flies in bursts of 2-3 seconds, wait 5 secs to pick up 3 more flies, charge & repeat.
I have 2 Stihl 2-stroke chainsaws, a weed-eater & leaf-blower, I drive a diesel truck to tow my boat to work.
Tesla semi? Musk probably can't manage more than a semi.

[Evanivitch]

paua said:

Cost to replace batt is close to cost of new unit.

Official Dyson V6 batteries are £65. A new Dyson will set you back at least 3 times that.

[paua]

Evanivitch said:

paua said:

Cost to replace batt is close to cost of new unit.

Official Dyson V6 batteries are £65. A new Dyson will set you back at least 3 times that.

Welcome to NZ - the cost of a new batt was close enough to total replacement cost, i.e. not worth it. Compare conversion efficiency of batt recharging over the life of the appliance to getting off my lazy arse & using the Miele which uses electricity directly from the grid, rather than converting grid to batt...
I use renewable hydro - better for the environment than a crappy lithium battery that some slave labour kid has to mine, that you want me to replace every year. Add up the total cost, not just the immediately apparent costs.
Batt tools have their place ( I use 36 volt drills etc for occasional high-drain jobs), however, they're not yet ready to totally supplant other power sources.

[NerveAgent]

I bought a dyson v6 about 4 years ago. I just had to replace the battery last month as mentioned around £60, held in by 2 small screws, arrived 2 days after ordering.

[SWoll]

paua said:

Evanivitch said:

paua said:

Cost to replace batt is close to cost of new unit.

Official Dyson V6 batteries are £65. A new Dyson will set you back at least 3 times that.

Welcome to NZ - the cost of a new batt was close enough to total replacement cost, i.e. not worth it. Compare conversion efficiency of batt recharging over the life of the appliance to getting off my lazy arse & using the Miele which uses electricity directly from the grid, rather than converting grid to batt...
I use renewable hydro - better for the environment than a crappy lithium battery that some slave labour kid has to mine, that you want me to replace every year. Add up the total cost, not just the immediately apparent costs.
Batt tools have their place ( I use 36 volt drills etc for occasional high-drain jobs), however, they're not yet ready to totally supplant other power sources.

Not sure where you were shopping but according to Dysons NZ website a replacement battery for a V11 is NZ$249, the V11 itself sells for NZ$1,299 to NZ$1,449. Cheapest V7 is NZ$499 and the battery is NZ$109.

So on average 4/5x the battery cost for a replacement unit?

Edited by SWoll on Sunday 6th December 09:03

[robinessex]

ninja-lewis said:

NMNeil said:

robinessex said:

What ICE vehicles will be almost impossible to replace with electric power. I'm thinking of military, farming and construction.

I'm sure the military will be exempt, as will farming, but they will be loaded with even more emission control devices.

The military are actively researching and trialing alternative fuels for military applications including combat vehicles and self-sufficient forward operating bases.

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events/news/2020/...

https://www.defensenews.com/land/2020/09/21/army-g...

https://interestingengineering.com/defense-goes-re...

They're not just doing this for fluffy green reasons. There are tactical advantages to quieter vehicles and simpler maintenance but most significant of all are the implications of reduced fuel consumption for the logistics system. In Afghanistan the cost of getting a gallon of fuel to the frontlines was up to $400/gallon, not to the mention the lives lost in resupply convoys.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/real-cost-of-gas-at-a...

RegMolehusband said:

I doubt very much that we will ever see a battery powered 40 tonne truck grinding up Shap on the M6 or over the M62 Manchester to Leeds. They might have a reasonable range cruising at 50mph on the flat but once they are asked to apply maximum tractive effort to the road surface for 20 minutes at a time I bet that range is obliterated.

Edited by RegMolehusband on Saturday 5th December 16:37

You're missing regenerative braking. Unlike ICE vehicles, BEVs can recover range lost on uphill sections as they descend the downhill side.

https://constructionclimatechallenge.com/2019/08/2...

A Tesla Semi was spotted load testing with an approx 34 tonne load at the summit of Donner Pass (7,000 feet). They're reportedly using the prototypes to transport battery packs from the Nevada Gigafactory to Fremont over the same route (about 250 miles).

https://www.thedrive.com/news/29449/tesla-semi-pro...

More importantly for PH: Tesla advertise the Semi as capable of maintaining 60mph while climbing 5% grades fully loaded. So instead of being stuck behind 30mph elephant racing on the steeper parts of the M42, we'll just be stuck behind 56mph elephants!

A fast-moving army bridge can't possibly drag a bloody power cable or station along. A tanker of fuel is far more practical.

[Jazzy Jag]

If you are the Army or other armed force in the process of waging war, blowing stuff up, firing shells and generally engaging in killing people, Why the feck are you concerned about emissions?

will we have to agree specific times for a cease fire so that both sides can plug in to recharge?
Will this now have to become part of the Geneva Convention?

[GliderRider]

QinetiQ built a hybrid off-road technology demonstrator about twelve years ago. Advantages included a simplified drive train (motor in each wheel), and the ability to make short journeys on battery power alone, which reduced the noise and thermal signature.
Strangely I had to go to a Russian website to find the press release from a British defence company!

QinetiQ Hybrid Electric Drive Demonstrator Vehicle

[jet_noise]

Jazzy Jag said:

If you are the Army or other armed force in the process of waging war, blowing stuff up, firing shells and generally engaging in killing people, Why the feck are you concerned about emissions?

will we have to agree specific times for a cease fire so that both sides can plug in to recharge?
Will this now have to become part of the Geneva Convention?

Timeout!

And you really, really hope that the enemy doesn't target your powerline.
Or generators.

I do get the quiet vehicle bit though its uses might be a bit too niche to be generally useful.
And lower maintenance is good but not in itself a large enough benefit to make it worthwhile.

IMHO of course

[NMNeil]

Jazzy Jag said:

If you are the Army or other armed force in the process of waging war, blowing stuff up, firing shells and generally engaging in killing people, Why the feck are you concerned about emissions?

will we have to agree specific times for a cease fire so that both sides can plug in to recharge?
Will this now have to become part of the Geneva Convention?

An incentive not to wage war in the first place?

[Jazzy Jag]

NMNeil said:

Jazzy Jag said:

If you are the Army or other armed force in the process of waging war, blowing stuff up, firing shells and generally engaging in killing people, Why the feck are you concerned about emissions?

will we have to agree specific times for a cease fire so that both sides can plug in to recharge?
Will this now have to become part of the Geneva Convention?

An incentive not to wage war in the first place?

or a mahoosive strategic military advantage for those who have a history of not giving a ste about the rules or environmental issues.

:cough:ChinaNorthkorea:cough:

[ninja-lewis]

jet_noise said:

Timeout!

And you really, really hope that the enemy doesn't target your powerline.
Or generators.

I do get the quiet vehicle bit though its uses might be a bit too niche to be generally useful.
And lower maintenance is good but not in itself a large enough benefit to make it worthwhile.

IMHO of course

The same threat applies to road tankers, fleet auxiliaries, storage bunkers and fuel pipelines all the way back to the refineries. The military are worried about their reliance on logistics generally.

If it's not a terrorist group with road-side IEDs or coordinated drone attacks (see Iran/Yemen v Saudi Arabia) it might be Russia or China with cyber attacks, hyper-sonic cruise missiles and all the other emerging threats. All of these are forcing armed forces to evolve towards much more distributed and independent concept of operations. Fewer large carrier battle groups in the Pacific and tank corps on the German Plains, more small island bases and truck mounted missiles.

They also worry about climate change creating new conflicts while the planet's reliance on fossil fuels ties us all to the Middle East and other unpleasant regimes. Just see how the Kremlin use their energy supplies to Eastern Europe to exert political influence in the region.

Closer to the home there will be the long term costs associated with maintaining fossil fuel infrastructure as the rest of the economy moves on as well as competition for recruitment in future generations (not just for the armed forces but in the associated supply chain). They worry about losing access to training areas because of wildfire risks in the summer or floods in the winter.

And that's before considering increased energy demands from new systems like directed energy weapons (lasers).

Hence the serious military research being carried out to improve fuel efficiency and increase self sufficiency in the short term and in the longer term transition the military to non-fossil fuel power sources. The former might mean hybrid electric combat vehicles that need less resupply or microgrids for forward operating bases which can integrate own solar/wind generation. The US Navy are developing technology to create hydrocarbon fuels from air or seawater in the long term.

This is not just the West either. The Chinese are already using wind and solar plants to power remote bases, including on disputed islands in the South China Sea. The US military are terrified they'll fall behind China when it comes to new technologies and adapting to a changing world.

[FiF]

rxe said:

Lily the Pink said:

All-electric tractors are available - at a price. Best suited to autonomous operation in large fields, I guess. Some of them use an umbilical connection which sounds awkward. Probably also feasible for small yard tractors which don't do many hours in a day or cover long distances away from a power point. Not so sure about suitability for tasks like hedge-cutting - a long way from home with large power requirements.

Edited to add link : https://www.deere.co.uk/en/agriculture/future-of-f...

Edited by Lily the Pink on Saturday 5th December 10:59

Problem is that the figures are full of twaddle.

The compact tractor is claimed to run for 8 hours. It has a 30 kw battery. Stick a 20HP PTO device on the back (say, a mower), and the battery will be flat in 2 hours, even if the tractor is stationary.

The whole point of tractors is that they do “everything”. No one is going to buy a new “yard” tractor - that’s what the 20 year old tractor is for. If you’re doing real grown up farming, then your tractors are going to be pulling 18 hour days at certain times of the year. More likely they’ll be doing 24 hour days with 2 shifts of operators.

All of these things depend on the use case. I’ve got a 54 volt DeWalt Angle grinder, For lopping the heads off bolts, or a small cut, it’s as good as mains one, It should be, it cost about 10x as much. But if you stick a wire brush in it to clean up a load of steel stock, it is useless - it’s out of power in 10 minutes.

Well quite, Christ many farmers no longer plough and use min till cultivation techniques simply because of the vast amounts of diesel burnt by big heavy draft tractors. The thought of how much stored energy would be required in something to be working from silly o'clock morning to stupid o'clock at night with only a few hours off blows the mind.