PC censorship vs debate and free speech, worrying trends.

[Rovinghawk]

Colonial said:

Because it's fascism?

Do you need a flowchart?

So your argument for me believing as you wish me to is "because"?

[TTwiggy]

Rovinghawk said:

TTwiggy said:

There's a bloke stood in front of you with a skinhead and a swastika tattoo on his forehead. He's wearing combat gear and carrying a gun. He's sporting a t-shirt with Hitler's face on it and an SS badge on his lapel. And you want to hear his views?

Does he not have freedom of speech to express those views within legal limits?

( Also I've seen Corbyn with a communist banner- Stalin killed more than Hitler.)

TTwiggy said:

Are you expecting to be pleasantly surprised by what he has to say?

How do I know until I've heard him? Should I just presume his views shouldn't be heard? That doesn't sound like the freedom of speech I support.

My point was you should really be in a position to anticipate his views.

Anyway, here's a bit of reading for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

[KrissKross]

Colonial said:

If you're a Nazi, yeah. I reckon they are more dangerous.

Considering right wing domestic terrorists have killed more in the US over the last 10 years than any other group I reckon you are talking out your arse

So you found the numbers?

[Rovinghawk]

TTwiggy said:

My point was you should really be in a position to anticipate his views.

Anyway, here's a bit of reading for you:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

Here's a quote for you in return: "Presumption is the mother of all cock-ups".

And yes- freedom of speech includes tolerating those who advocate limits on freedom of speech. Much like you're doing?

[Colonial]

Rovinghawk said:

So your argument for me believing as you wish me to is "because"?

No it's common sense.

I honestly don't know what rock you live under to have to enter into dialogue about whether fascism is a good idea or not.

It's like trying to defend Pol Pot.

[TTwiggy]

Rovinghawk said:

Here's a quote for you in return: "Presumption is the mother of all cock-ups".

And yes- freedom of speech includes tolerating those who advocate limits on freedom of speech. Much like you're doing?

I'm not seeking to limit anything. I just don't see the need to listen to a neo-Nazi in order to know what he (or she) stands for - it's patently obvious.

[Rovinghawk]

Colonial said:

No it's common sense.

I honestly don't know what rock you live under to have to enter into dialogue about whether fascism is a good idea or not.

It's like trying to defend Pol Pot.

I'm not debating the rights/wrongs of fascism- I'm debating the rights/wrongs of you telling me what I should believe.

Please explain how it's common sense, ideally without your previous argument "because".

[Colonial]

KrissKross said:

So you found the numbers?

I have U.S. from SPLC.

I'm trying to find one that doesn't involve Brevik as he is far right rather than neo-Nazi R reckon you won't cobsider him?

[Bacon Is Proof]

I must apologize.

When I wrote that the default position of any (normal) person should be anti-fascist, it was within the context of the normal person not being so fking stupid as to not know what fascism is.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

[Colonial]

Rovinghawk said:

I'm not debating the rights/wrongs of fascism- I'm debating the rights/wrongs of you telling me what I should believe.

Please explain how it's common sense, ideally without your previous argument "because".

If you need cliffnotes on why fascism is bad then I'm sorry. I've completely over estimated you.

[TurboHatchback]

TTwiggy said:

Rovinghawk said:

Please explain why I should have a default position as you suggest. My preferred default position would be to hear the views & decide for myself.

There's a bloke stood in front of you with a skinhead and a swastika tattoo on his forehead. He's wearing combat gear and carrying a gun. He's sporting a t-shirt with Hitler's face on it and an SS badge on his lapel. And you want to hear his views?

Are you expecting to be pleasantly surprised by what he has to say?

I would not like his views, much as I don't like the views spouted by men with beards in dresses who believe we should all join the caliphate and give up our evil fornicating ways. I support their right to have and express those views however lest my own views ever fall the wrong side of the 'allowed' divide. You can't split the two ideas, either we have thought policing and oppression (be it benevolent or otherwise) or we do not. I think opting for oppression because it's currently more comfortable and appears benevolent to you is a dangerous thing.

[Rovinghawk]

TTwiggy said:

I just don't see the need to listen to a neo-Nazi in order to know what he (or she) stands for - it's patently obvious.

You have the right to not listen- I think freedom of listening is a fundamental right.

Knowing what someone thinks without listening to them seems a bit trickier. I'd love to be able to do it.

[TTwiggy]

TurboHatchback said:

I would not like his views, much as I don't like the views spouted by men with beards in dresses who believe we should all join the caliphate and give up our evil fornicating ways. I support their right to have and express those views however lest my own views ever fall the wrong side of the 'allowed' divide. You can't split the two ideas, either we have thought policing and oppression (be it benevolent or otherwise) or we do not. I think opting for oppression because it's currently more comfortable and appears benevolent to you is a dangerous thing.

I said nothing about 'shutting down his views', I simply sought to explain to the poster I replied to the fact that he'd be unlikely to hear anything constructive from such a person and, as such, I struggle to understand why he'd want to hear what that person had to say.

[Colonial]

Rovinghawk said:

You have the right to not listen- I think freedom of listening is a fundamental right.

Knowing what someone thinks without listening to them seems a bit trickier. I'd love to be able to do it.

If someone is carrying a swastika, goose stepping down the street and chanting blood and soil I don't see what wisdoms you are expecting them to impart.

[Rovinghawk]

Bacon Is Proof said:

I must apologize.

When I wrote that the default position of any (normal) person should be anti-fascist, it was within the context of the normal person not being so fking stupid as to not know what fascism is.

I hope this clears up any confusion.

I know what it is. I don't know why I 'should' have the same belief as yourself rather than the freedom to choose for myself.

I presume you only advocate freedom of choice for those who agree with you? Oh- isn't that similar to fascism?

[TTwiggy]

Rovinghawk said:

Knowing what someone thinks without listening to them seems a bit trickier. I'd love to be able to do it.

When someone is festooned in Nazi regalia you don't need any special gift to know his or her views.

[Rovinghawk]

Colonial said:

If someone is carrying a swastika, goose stepping down the street and chanting blood and soil I don't see what wisdoms you are expecting them to impart.

Do you stereotype bikers, johnny foreigner & young people too?

TTwiggy said:

When someone is festooned in Nazi regalia you don't need any special gift to know his or her views.

And based on that presumption you'd deny them freedom of speech?

Edited by Rovinghawk on Monday 21st August 15:22

[Boydie88]

Colonial said:

Rovinghawk said:

I'm not debating the rights/wrongs of fascism- I'm debating the rights/wrongs of you telling me what I should believe.

Please explain how it's common sense, ideally without your previous argument "because".

If you need cliffnotes on why fascism is bad then I'm sorry. I've completely over estimated you.

The modern day Antifa are fascists themselves by every definition of the word. There are scum on both sides.

Awaiting your right wing terrorist numbers.

[Colonial]

Rovinghawk said:

Do you stereotype bikers, johnny foreigner & young people too?

Poor widdle neo-Nazis. How dare people judge them for explicitly demanding that Jews die.

[Rovinghawk]

Colonial said:

Rovinghawk said:

I'm not debating the rights/wrongs of fascism- I'm debating the rights/wrongs of you telling me what I should believe.

Please explain how it's common sense, ideally without your previous argument "because".

If you need cliffnotes on why fascism is bad then I'm sorry. I've completely over estimated you.

Read the bit that you've quoted where I've clearly written that it's not about the rights/wrongs of fascism, it's about the rights/wrongs of being told what I should think. I can repeat if for you if that would help.

Edited by Rovinghawk on Monday 21st August 15:28