PC censorship vs debate and free speech, worrying trends.

[andy_s]

Einion Yrth said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

It's not just a lefty thing.
The Nazis,

National Socialist German workers party

I don't think the 'Socialist...Worker' refers specifically to a left wing in that context, that was the way he appealed to the common man; although a lot of what Il Duce did was considered left wing (State control of industry etc) and much of that was cribbed by Adolf.

It's often noted that extreme right and extreme left both have similar ideologies.

[Einion Yrth]

andy_s said:

Einion Yrth said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

It's not just a lefty thing.
The Nazis,

National Socialist German workers party

I don't think the 'Socialist...Worker' refers specifically to a left wing in that context, that was the way he appealed to the common man; although a lot of what Il Duce did was considered left wing (State control of industry etc) and much of that was cribbed by Adolf.

It's often noted that extreme right and extreme left both have similar ideologies.

State control of industry, elevation of the party over the individual. How was Nazism not left wing, with the possible exception of the racism, Stalin was ,perhaps, less racist, he'd send anyone to the Gulag, including some of his smartest scientists. Mind you Einstein would have been in some bother if he hadn't run for it.

[anonymous-user]

TurboHatchback said:

I support everyones right to express their views without fear of violence as a fundamental condition of being able to express mine.

But Isis and Nazis run people over in cars/vans so they can't be trusted to hold a peaceful demonstration. Are you ok with how they express their views?

[Stickyfinger]

Raygun said:

TurboHatchback said:

I support everyones right to express their views without fear of violence as a fundamental condition of being able to express mine.

But Isis and Nazis run people over in cars/vans so they can't be trusted to hold a peaceful demonstration. Are you ok with how they express their views?

Whereas the Far Left are systematically destroying our democracy by violent protests and their actions against free speech.......(forgetting the direct violent protests in places like the G7 meeting in Hamburg and other cities around the world).

[Goaty Bill 2]

Einion Yrth said:

Goaty Bill 2 said:

It's not just a lefty thing.
The Nazis,

National Socialist German workers party

Goaty Bill 2 said:

the Soviets,

Union of Soviet Socialist republics.

Goaty Bill 2 said:

The Maoist Chinese,

Chinese communist party

Goaty Bill 2 said:

religious fundamentalists (of many faiths and denominations),

not a single one of which I would accuse of being of a Libertarian bent

Goaty Bill 2 said:

have all had people do it.

So your examples suggest that it is mostly a lefty thing.

From every little change made from the common parlance to the (fairly) precise terms (as though I might somehow be ignorant of such facts, and to assume that would be an error in judgement), is it safe to assume that anything else I have to suggest will be similarly de-constructed and remodelled into something I did not say?
Perhaps I misinterpret your intent?


For a clarity that is apparently lacking (and maybe it was); it is, in my opinion, 'an authoritarian thing'. The left/right politics of it are fairly irrelevant.
Solzhenitsyn, upon discovering through harsh personal experience, the truth of Soviet show trials and gulag system, described them as 'fascist methods'.

I now wish you the very best in finding the energy to go back through the previous 27 pages (that is according to my browser, your mileage may differ) to remind everyone else via quoted posts that it was the National Socialist German Workers Party and the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics

[Einion Yrth]

I absolutely concur that it is "an authoritarian thing". I'm not sure that I think left/right is any kind of actual dichotomy.

My personal experience is that those claiming to be of the left have tended to be more authoritarian. This may be because I associate Libertarianism with the right. This may also be a misinterpretation. It's complicated.

[Not-The-Messiah]

bhstewie said:

There's something bizarre about this thread where some people conflate simply being able to see a point to somehow supporting and being in agreement with all kinds of things.

It's not just this thread its any discussion in general now. It's seems that many people can't grasp the idea that people can be rational adults and stand back and look at arguments from both sides. Seeing pros and cons, sense and stupidity in both.

It's just seems to be the you are either with us or you are against us mentally.

[Einion Yrth]

Not-The-Messiah said:

It's just seems to be the you are either with us or you are against us mentally.

We're tribal/pack animals; It is in many ways regrettable, and it certainly holds us back as a species, but it's part of what we are.

[andy_s]

Einion Yrth said:

I absolutely concur that it is "an authoritarian thing". I'm not sure that I think left/right is any kind of actual dichotomy.

Left jackboot, right jackboot...

'Left or right' is angels on a pin as you rightly say.

[Not-The-Messiah]

Einion Yrth said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

It's just seems to be the you are either with us or you are against us mentally.

We're tribal/pack animals; It is in many ways regrettable, and it certainly holds us back as a species, but it's part of what we are.

It worry's me that the people that should be the most rational and open minded, scientists, university professors, journalists even. Seem to be the ones seeing things in such away the most lately.

[Randy Winkman]

Einion Yrth said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

It's just seems to be the you are either with us or you are against us mentally.

We're tribal/pack animals; It is in many ways regrettable, and it certainly holds us back as a species, but it's part of what we are.

I'd say that's a lazy "get out" to justify a lack of self control.

[Goaty Bill 2]

Einion Yrth said:

I absolutely concur that it is "an authoritarian thing". I'm not sure that I think left/right is any kind of actual dichotomy.

My personal experience is that those claiming to be of the left have tended to be more authoritarian. This may be because I associate Libertarianism with the right. This may also be a misinterpretation. It's complicated.

In which case, my apologies for assuming there may be any other agenda on your part.
You know what this place, tame as it may be, is like

Being somewhat prone to an authoritarian streak myself, and remaining convinced that there is a 'time and a place' (and a limit), I am very concious of the attempts of others to dictate the actions and beliefs of other people for them.

I don't have a label for my stance or position, but I believe every person should have the freedom and liberty to make a total arse of themselves, providing that when and while doing so they do not hurt anyone or limit anyone else's freedom or liberty.

I learned a very long time ago that my natural willingness to submit to authority figures, and assume that those in power 'know best' was a very poor substitute for informed and independent thinking.
There are many people, writers and philosophers, even a politician or two, (mostly past, but some present) who I admire greatly, but I follow none of them implicitly.

Every once in a while I will watch or re-watch a holocaust documentary, and the images of those harried Polish and German Jews all but brings a tear to my eye. The children, the old people, it's heart breaking.
My better informed self wishes that more such footage was available from the Soviet gulags, the Chinese laogai, Cuban labour camps, to let people know that it was not just 'the right'. It is extremists, ideologues and authoritarians that are dangerous.

If we can't speak of one side or the other or of one colour or another, if we can't point out authoritarian behaviour, if we cannot criticise a reduction in our human rights and civil liberties, then we are doomed to go through all of it again, like a perpetual Ground Hog Day of the Bill Murray style.
But not nearly so funny.

We can only do that with the greatest level of freedom of speech possible.

Sometimes that means that a complete asshole is allowed to upset my feelings.
It is a price I am willing to pay.
Every day.

[Funkycoldribena]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

In which case, my apologies for assuming there may be any other agenda on your part.
You know what this place, tame as it may be, is like

Being somewhat prone to an authoritarian streak myself, and remaining convinced that there is a 'time and a place' (and a limit), I am very concious of the attempts of others to dictate the actions and beliefs of other people for them.

I don't have a label for my stance or position, but I believe every person should have the freedom and liberty to make a total arse of themselves, providing that when and while doing so they do not hurt anyone or limit anyone else's freedom or liberty.

I learned a very long time ago that my natural willingness to submit to authority figures, and assume that those in power 'know best' was a very poor substitute for informed and independent thinking.
There are many people, writers and philosophers, even a politician or two, (mostly past, but some present) who I admire greatly, but I follow none of them implicitly.

Every once in a while I will watch or re-watch a holocaust documentary, and the images of those harried Polish and German Jews all but brings a tear to my eye. The children, the old people, it's heart breaking.
My better informed self wishes that more such footage was available from the Soviet gulags, the Chinese laogai, Cuban labour camps, to let people know that it was not just 'the right'. It is extremists, ideologues and authoritarians that are dangerous.

If we can't speak of one side or the other or of one colour or another, if we can't point out authoritarian behaviour, if we cannot criticise a reduction in our human rights and civil liberties, then we are doomed to go through all of it again, like a perpetual Ground Hog Day of the Bill Murray style.
But not nearly so funny.

We can only do that with the greatest level of freedom of speech possible.

Sometimes that means that a complete asshole is allowed to upset my feelings.
It is a price I am willing to pay.
Every day.

I totally agree.
Can't even watch those films.
Still going on in North Korea now as well.

[Not-The-Messiah]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

In which case, my apologies for assuming there may be any other agenda on your part.
You know what this place, tame as it may be, is like

Being somewhat prone to an authoritarian streak myself, and remaining convinced that there is a 'time and a place' (and a limit), I am very concious of the attempts of others to dictate the actions and beliefs of other people for them.

I don't have a label for my stance or position, but I believe every person should have the freedom and liberty to make a total arse of themselves, providing that when and while doing so they do not hurt anyone or limit anyone else's freedom or liberty.

I learned a very long time ago that my natural willingness to submit to authority figures, and assume that those in power 'know best' was a very poor substitute for informed and independent thinking.
There are many people, writers and philosophers, even a politician or two, (mostly past, but some present) who I admire greatly, but I follow none of them implicitly.

Every once in a while I will watch or re-watch a holocaust documentary, and the images of those harried Polish and German Jews all but brings a tear to my eye. The children, the old people, it's heart breaking.
My better informed self wishes that more such footage was available from the Soviet gulags, the Chinese laogai, Cuban labour camps, to let people know that it was not just 'the right'. It is extremists, ideologues and authoritarians that are dangerous.

If we can't speak of one side or the other or of one colour or another, if we can't point out authoritarian behaviour, if we cannot criticise a reduction in our human rights and civil liberties, then we are doomed to go through all of it again, like a perpetual Ground Hog Day of the Bill Murray style.
But not nearly so funny.

We can only do that with the greatest level of freedom of speech possible.

Sometimes that means that a complete asshole is allowed to upset my feelings.
It is a price I am willing to pay.
Every day.

Agreed sadly when you say we are doomed to repeat it time and time again the next time probably be the last.

[vournikas]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

In which case, my apologies for assuming there may be any other agenda on your part.
You know what this place, tame as it may be, is like

Being somewhat prone to an authoritarian streak myself, and remaining convinced that there is a 'time and a place' (and a limit), I am very concious of the attempts of others to dictate the actions and beliefs of other people for them.

I don't have a label for my stance or position, but I believe every person should have the freedom and liberty to make a total arse of themselves, providing that when and while doing so they do not hurt anyone or limit anyone else's freedom or liberty.

I learned a very long time ago that my natural willingness to submit to authority figures, and assume that those in power 'know best' was a very poor substitute for informed and independent thinking.
There are many people, writers and philosophers, even a politician or two, (mostly past, but some present) who I admire greatly, but I follow none of them implicitly.

Every once in a while I will watch or re-watch a holocaust documentary, and the images of those harried Polish and German Jews all but brings a tear to my eye. The children, the old people, it's heart breaking.
My better informed self wishes that more such footage was available from the Soviet gulags, the Chinese laogai, Cuban labour camps, to let people know that it was not just 'the right'. It is extremists, ideologues and authoritarians that are dangerous.

If we can't speak of one side or the other or of one colour or another, if we can't point out authoritarian behaviour, if we cannot criticise a reduction in our human rights and civil liberties, then we are doomed to go through all of it again, like a perpetual Ground Hog Day of the Bill Murray style.
But not nearly so funny.

We can only do that with the greatest level of freedom of speech possible.

Sometimes that means that a complete asshole is allowed to upset my feelings.
It is a price I am willing to pay.
Every day.

This is one of the best posts I've read in this 'ere parish

[Bacon Is Proof]

Mothersruin said:

At least we know you don't suffer from nosebleeds.

I'd be more interested in what you think on the subject, but I respect your unwillingness to state your point.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Goaty Bill 2 said:

Of course it was.

Glad you agree with me.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Mr2Mike said:

See, that is fine since you are just stating your own opinion. It's when you attempt to state other peoples opinions that it all goes very ironic.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 21st August 18:21

Of course it's my opinion, and I'd be happy to discuss matters with anyone that doesn't share my opinions.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Rovinghawk said:

Presume that the answer is no.

There is no point in trying to talk with someone who is devoid of morality.
That's just not normal.

[Bacon Is Proof]

Rovinghawk said:

Do you wish to impinge on their freedom of belief? It sounds like it.

That's the exact opposite of what he is saying.
Sounds like you're trolling, and that you're not very good at it.