45th President of the United States, Donald Trump. Vol 3

[Eric Mc]

Byker28i said:

No, his base is still strong. They still see the economy and jobs as trumps greatest strength, don't like his tweets but still think he is the best choice. They'll only get lost when the economy drops significantly, jobs don't manifest, or his financial underpinnign from the russians is exposed. Even then they'll be a core that will still support him, think it's all a conspiracy against him.
He still pulls 70% support from his base republican supporters.

What he's lost with the latest is those that voted for him as the less worse choice, those who were swayed by the fbi investigation days before the election. Those who are now regretting it with his tweets and the russia scandal and are changing their minds

We shall see. There are more Americans who really do not like what is happening than DO like what is happening.

[Countdown]

unrepentant said:

Huge wins for democrats tonight. Northam won VA Gov race against Trump supporting republican by 9 points. Margins in many counties way higher than expectations. Expect republican congressional incumbents to start panicking.

I think that's wishful thinking unfortunately. The GOP candidate kept Trump at a distance and Trump is stating that this is why he lost. There's a very strong possibility that future GOP candidates will embrace Trumpism whole-heartedly and the whole Party will swing further to the nutty side.

Trump would still win today if he ran against HRC

[Funkycoldribena]

Breadvan72 said:

Democracy is a whole lot more than just voting, which is one reason why I don't buy the "Will of the People" Brexit blah.

I don't think you'd be saying that if it went the other way.

[AW111]

Breadvan72 said:

It has been said that America is a democracy in spite of its electoral system, not because of it.

To my mind the worst facet of the US system is the way the incumbents get to redraw electoral boundaries in their favour.
This leads to gerrymandered districts that are the safest of safe seats, and almost never change hands.
Most US politicians' chief threat is from their own party.

rantt said:

In 2016, only eight incumbents out of the 435 up for reelection lost their seats. And many won with enormous margins that captured 60–70% of the vote in seemingly lopsided campaign races.

https://rantt.com/the-top-10-most-gerrymandered-st...

[Zod]

Funkycoldribena said:

Breadvan72 said:

Democracy is a whole lot more than just voting, which is one reason why I don't buy the "Will of the People" Brexit blah.

I don't think you'd be saying that if it went the other way.

He wouldn't need to, because Farage would never shut up about it.

[XM5ER]

Eric Mc said:

Breadvan72 said:

Democracy is a whole lot more than just voting, which is one reason why I don't buy the "Will of the People" Brexit blah.

Absolutely agree. In some ways, it's the least important attribute of a democratic society.

Honestly Eric, you're going to have unpack that somewhat odd statement.

[Funkycoldribena]

Zod said:

He wouldn't need to, because Farage would never shut up about it.

That would be that bloke who's got everything right so far and achieved his aim?

[Eric Mc]

XM5ER said:

Eric Mc said:

Breadvan72 said:

Democracy is a whole lot more than just voting, which is one reason why I don't buy the "Will of the People" Brexit blah.

Absolutely agree. In some ways, it's the least important attribute of a democratic society.

Honestly Eric, you're going to have unpack that somewhat odd statement.

Really?

Voting is the icing on the cake in a democracy. Most of the time, we aren't voting - so democracies have to operate in a way that allows us the freedoms, liberties etc that we expect in this type of society. The Chinese government allows people to vote, but nobody would ever argue that they have a society that is any way open and democratic.

[Eddie Strohacker]

Funkycoldribena said:

That would be that bloke who's got everything right so far and achieved his aim?

If you exclude being elected to Westminster (x7), becoming British ambassador to the US & thinking a car crash was a bunch of Jihadis, then yes.

[schmunk]

Funkycoldribena said:

Zod said:

He wouldn't need to, because Farage would never shut up about it.

That would be that bloke who's got everything right so far and achieved his aim?

No, that would be this bloke...

[Eric Mc]

schmunk said:

Funkycoldribena said:

Zod said:

He wouldn't need to, because Farage would never shut up about it.

That would be that bloke who's got everything right so far and achieved his aim?

No, that would be this bloke...

I'd nominate Sidicks - he's ALWAYS right.

[XM5ER]

Eric Mc said:

XM5ER said:

Eric Mc said:

Breadvan72 said:

Democracy is a whole lot more than just voting, which is one reason why I don't buy the "Will of the People" Brexit blah.

Absolutely agree. In some ways, it's the least important attribute of a democratic society.

Honestly Eric, you're going to have unpack that somewhat odd statement.

Really?

Voting is the icing on the cake in a democracy. Most of the time, we aren't voting - so democracies have to operate in a way that allows us the freedoms, liberties etc that we expect in this type of society. The Chinese government allows people to vote, but nobody would ever argue that they have a society that is any way open and democratic.

Come off it Eric, you cant throw China in there, that's a red herring. You might as well say that a sperm is the least important aspect of child rearing, true in some sense but you ain't going to get a family without one.

[Eric Mc]

I don't know why you are reacting the way you are. Voting is an important element of a democratic system. But it is only one element.

If you don't really understand that, I have to suggest you misunderstand what democracy is all about.

[XM5ER]

Eric Mc said:

I don't know why you are reacting the way you are. Voting is an important element of a democratic system. But it is only one element.

If you don't really understand that, I have to suggest you misunderstand what democracy is all about.

The context of your comment was important, I don't dispute that the rule of law, many, many institutions and much more makes up our liberal democracy, but to say that voting is overrated because of Trump and Brexit is dangerous. That way tyranny lies.

[Eric Mc]

XM5ER said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't know why you are reacting the way you are. Voting is an important element of a democratic system. But it is only one element.

If you don't really understand that, I have to suggest you misunderstand what democracy is all about.

The context of your comment was important, I don't dispute that the rule of law, many, many institutions and much more makes up our liberal democracy, but to say that voting is overrated because of Trump and Brexit is dangerous. That way tyranny lies.

Tyranny only becomes a possibility if we allow one aspect of democracy to override the others. In America, there is a strong argument that the voting system did not really deliver the will of the people. For the moment, however, the other democratic institutions are showing how they can restrain someone who won an election (i.e. the voting system worked in their favour) but did not REALLY get the mandate they would have liked to have received.

Yesterday's shows that this may be being redressed. It is the other institutions of democracy in America that have prevented Trump from riding roughshod over their democracy. So, voting is great but it's good the other aspects of democracy are in place too.

The really important aspect of a democracy for me is how the winners of an election treat the losers.

[JuniorD]

XM5ER said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't know why you are reacting the way you are. Voting is an important element of a democratic system. But it is only one element.

If you don't really understand that, I have to suggest you misunderstand what democracy is all about.

The context of your comment was important, I don't dispute that the rule of law, many, many institutions and much more makes up our liberal democracy, but to say that voting is overrated because of Trump and Brexit is dangerous. That way tyranny lies.

Arguably Trump and perhaps Brexit are examples of how voting can actually deliver tyrants in charge.

[XM5ER]

Eric Mc said:

XM5ER said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't know why you are reacting the way you are. Voting is an important element of a democratic system. But it is only one element.

If you don't really understand that, I have to suggest you misunderstand what democracy is all about.

The context of your comment was important, I don't dispute that the rule of law, many, many institutions and much more makes up our liberal democracy, but to say that voting is overrated because of Trump and Brexit is dangerous. That way tyranny lies.

Tyranny only becomes a possibility if we allow one aspect of democracy to override the others. In America, there is a strong argument that the voting system did not really deliver the will of the people. For the moment, however, the other democratic institutions are showing how they can restrain someone who won an election (i.e. the voting system worked in their favour) but did not REALLY get the mandate they would have liked to have received.

Yesterday's shows that this may be being redressed. It is the other institutions of democracy in America that have prevented Trump from riding roughshod over their democracy. So, voting is great but it's good the other aspects of democracy are in place too.

The really important aspect of a democracy for me is how the winners of an election treat the losers.

I don't disagree, but voting is not the least important thing though is it?

[XM5ER]

JuniorD said:

Arguably Trump and perhaps Brexit are examples of how voting can actually deliver tyrants in charge.

An interesting assertion, explain?

[unrepentant]

paulguitar said:

Eddie Strohacker said:

Off topic but I've never seen The west wing. Is it worth a watch?

It is really very good, but requires the viewer to make an effort and pay attention. Martin Sheen's perfomance is amazing and watching it will really make you wish we had a grown-up in the Whitehouse.

The first 4 seasons were exceptional. You might find it a little dated but it is a fine piece of drama. As mentioned above Sheen is excellent and there are very strong career making performances from Alison Janney, Bradley Whitford, John Spencer, Richard Schiff and others. Look out for a very young Elizabeth Moss as the daughter and Stockard (Grease!) Channing as the wife.

A number of Clinton insiders such as the aforementioned Larry O'Donnell were involved and a lot of access to the Clinton White House was given so there's a strong element of realism. At it's height Martin Sheen would probably have got elected as POTUS if he had stood in character although in real life he's far more left wing than the liberal Bartlet.

It won 26 Emmy's.

[Eric Mc]

XM5ER said:

I don't disagree, but voting is not the least important thing though is it?

Democracy is the engine. Voting is one of the tools we use to make it work.