J Hunt and S Hawking - how do we know...

[768]

jjlynn27 said:

That's a good way of illustrating things so that even can get them. OK, ready?

You are stacking shelves at the supermarket. You do 4 shelves a shift for which you get £40. Now, Pjotr, your boss says; 'hey I'll increase your pay to £50 but now you need to do 8 shelves, take as long as you like.

If there is any part that's confusing do let me know.

When the NHS moved from being paid an hourly rate to fixed price.

[anonymous-user]

jjlynn27 said:

That's a good way of illustrating things so that even can get them. OK, ready?

You are stacking shelves at the supermarket. You do 4 shelves a shift for which you get £40. Now, Pjotr, your boss says; 'hey I'll increase your pay to £50 but now you need to do 8 shelves, take as long as you like.

If there is any part that's confusing do let me know.

Have another you dipstick.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

That's a good way of illustrating things so that even can get them. OK, ready?

Are you throwing out insults again?

You didn't answer the questions (as you never do). I wonder why? Maybe the point being made (and the implications) are beyond you?

Edited by sidicks on Monday 28th August 22:16

[TooMany2cvs]

jjlynn27 said:

You are stacking shelves at the supermarket. You do 4 shelves a shift for which you get £40. Now, Pjotr, your boss says; 'hey I'll increase your pay to £50 but now you need to do 8 shelves, take as long as you like.

If there is any part that's confusing do let me know.

If eight shelves in a shift is doable, why are you slacking now?

And does it make a difference if your boss is called Pjotr, Peter, पीटर or 彼得?

[968]

sidicks said:

Are you throwing out insults again?

You didn't answer the questions (as you never do). I wonder why? Maybe the point being made (and the implications) are beyond you?

Edited by sidicks on Monday 28th August 22:16

What irony. Would you care to answer the question about what services should be cut?

[sidicks]

968 said:

What irony.

Not really, because I don't throw my toys out of the pram when insults are hurled in my direction, unlike him. Which is the point I am making.

By the way, if you want to discuss 'irony', how about those in the NHS who point to the number of people living longer as to reasons why the NHS needs more money, but who seem unable to comprehend the reasons why their pensions need to be significantly reduced...

968 said:

Would you care to answer the question about what services should be cut?

According to people like you, if you don't work in the NHS you don't have the expertise to comment on the situation in the NHS.

So I ask you, if everything the NHS currently does 'essential', or is there scope for priroritising what it can realistically offer given the money available?

[968]

sidicks said:

According to people like you, if you don't work in the NHS you don't have the expertise to comment on the situation in the NHS.

So I ask you, if everything the NHS currently does 'essential', or is there scope for priroritising what it can realistically offer given the money available?

Unable to answer the question so you try to put words in my mouth about whether I think you have the expertise to comment. Try answering the question and not making it my responsibility that you don't have the capability to, or just say "I don't know, it's very complicated"

[sidicks]

968 said:

Unable to answer the question so you try to put words in my mouth about whether I think you have the expertise to comment. Try answering the question and not making it my responsibility that you don't have the capability to, or just say "I don't know, it's very complicated"

I didn't put words in your mouth, I quite clearly said people like you. Previous threads have seen the same things when commenting on teachers etc too.

HTH

If you don't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 29th August 10:31

[968]

sidicks said:

I didn't put words in your mouth, I quote clearly said people like you. Previous threads have seen the same things when commenting on teachers etc too.

HTH

If you don't answer my questions, why should I answer yours?

Yes you are putting words in my mouth by assuming my response based on "people like me" which is the most bizarre explanation I've read.

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine, which was asked first.

[sidicks]

968 said:

Yes you are putting words in my mouth by assuming my response based on "people like me" which is the most bizarre explanation I've read.

You're interpretation is 'bizarre' - I've made no comment on you, I've quite clearly commented on what other NHS staff (and Teachers) have said in similar scenarios in the past.

In this case, other people who work in the NHS are 'people like you'. This really shouldn't be hard to understand.

968 said:

I'll answer your questions when you answer mine, which was asked first.

Really?

On page 3 of the thread I asked you to support your claim that 'Hunt gets so much support on this forum', but I'm still waiting.

Later in that same page I asked you which other public services should be cut to provide more money to the NHS, in still waiting for your response.

On that page I made it clear that the NHS already has to make priority calls on how to spend its money, it simply needs to do this more aggressively!

[Murph7355]

Dogwatch said:

I read somewhere recently that while we came high on the list for health spend - which was bigged up, we came well down for medical outcomes - which was't commented on.
And this wasn't just the G7 but a much bigger list.

The last figures I looked up we did OK enough on outcomes too, except for specific instances (e.g I think we're down on cancer).

The issue with looking at these things is that the picture is way more complex than a single figure can tell you, but the singular figures get picked up to "progress" the political argument.

e.g. would throwing more money at the cancer issue resolve it? Or are their other factors at play (the way we are as people for example, or other factors perhaps leading to higher instances of more aggressive types?).

And if we started to spend more on the NHS, what other services would we be happy to forfeit? Do we take in as much tax as the other nations above us per head etc? Would we all be happy paying more (and I do mean "all").

[TooMany2cvs]

sidicks said:

So I ask you, if everything the NHS currently does 'essential', or is there scope for priroritising what it can realistically offer given the money available?

"Essential" is a big word.

There's basically three categories of stuff the NHS does - reactive, preventative and "other"...

Reactive - That's obvious. Making ill people well, or managing/working around things that can't be fixed. Not sure many people would call that non-essential...

Preventative - That's where it starts to get grey. Everything from dental check-ups to weight loss to smoking cessation, and a shed load more besides. Is it "essential"? A lot of it probably saves the NHS money, by stopping things getting to the reactive stage.

"Other" - Definitely grey, at best. Elective plastic surgery - even boobjobs - can certainly come under preventative, especially when you consider mental health. But I wonder if anybody fancies arguing that NHS IVF is "essential"...?

[968]

sidicks said:

Really?

On page 3 of the thread I asked you to support your claim that 'Hunt gets so much support on this forum', but I'm still waiting.

Later in that same page I asked you which other public services should be cut to provide more money to the NHS, in still waiting for your response.

On that page I made it clear that the NHS already has to make priority calls on how to spend its money, it simply needs to do this more aggressively!

Utterly bizarre but typical of your posting style, i.e. obfuscate by continually not answering the question but refusal to accept a contrary position.

You support Hunt for one and have done on other such threads. I am in no position to comment about other public services, I can only comment on the health services which I work in, both NHS and private sectors. I await further predictable obfuscation and self congratulation.

[jjlynn27]

768 said:

jjlynn27 said:

That's a good way of illustrating things so that even can get them. OK, ready?

You are stacking shelves at the supermarket. You do 4 shelves a shift for which you get £40. Now, Pjotr, your boss says; 'hey I'll increase your pay to £50 but now you need to do 8 shelves, take as long as you like.

If there is any part that's confusing do let me know.

When the NHS moved from being paid an hourly rate to fixed price.

Like you, in the example, they are getting bit more money for lot more work. It was your analogy so not sure which part is troubling you? I can try to make it even simpler for you ;
4hr 4 sh £40
8hr 8sh £50
Increase or pay cut?

[jjlynn27]

fblm said:

jjlynn27 said:

That's a good way of illustrating things so that even can get them. OK, ready?

You are stacking shelves at the supermarket. You do 4 shelves a shift for which you get £40. Now, Pjotr, your boss says; 'hey I'll increase your pay to £50 but now you need to do 8 shelves, take as long as you like.

If there is any part that's confusing do let me know.

Have another you dipstick.

At least you managed to recognise yourself. Well done, give yourself deserved pat on the back.

[jjlynn27]

sidicks said:

jjlynn27 said:

That's a good way of illustrating things so that even can get them. OK, ready?

Are you throwing out insults again?

You didn't answer the questions (as you never do). I wonder why? Maybe the point being made (and the implications) are beyond you?

Edited by sidicks on Monday 28th August 22:16

No insults. Mild mockery of cretinous avoidance of swear filter.

What was the question? If 'no money' then it was answered before. I'd cut defence and abandon idiotic 7day full on NHS which IIRC you were in favour of @ JD dispute thread?
If i issued any other questions, feel free to repeat them as I'm on dodgy Italian 3g

[Murph7355]

TooMany2cvs said:

"Essential" is a big word.

There's basically three categories of stuff the NHS does - reactive, preventative and "other"...

Reactive - That's obvious. Making ill people well, or managing/working around things that can't be fixed. Not sure many people would call that non-essential...

Preventative - That's where it starts to get grey. Everything from dental check-ups to weight loss to smoking cessation, and a shed load more besides. Is it "essential"? A lot of it probably saves the NHS money, by stopping things getting to the reactive stage.

"Other" - Definitely grey, at best. Elective plastic surgery - even boobjobs - can certainly come under preventative, especially when you consider mental health. But I wonder if anybody fancies arguing that NHS IVF is "essential"...?

Reactive - tick (mostly - prohibitively expensive treatments; treatment of arguable efficacy etc might be excluded too).

Preventative - only if there is money left AND the treatment is demonstrated to save money on Reactive.

"Other" - cancelled.

When do I start?

Do the NHS categorise things this way? And is it costed along the same lines? It would be interesting to see the figures. It would also be interesting to see how they do categorise their work.

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

No insults. Mild mockery of cretinous avoidance of swear filter.

What was the question? If 'no money' then it was answered before. I'd cut defence and abandon idiotic 7day full on NHS which IIRC you were in favour of @ JD dispute thread?
If i issued any other questions, feel free to repeat them as I'm on dodgy Italian 3g

I'm on Italian wi-fi - see you at the airport?

[sidicks]

jjlynn27 said:

No insults. Mild mockery of cretinous avoidance of swear filter.

What was the question? If 'no money' then it was answered before. I'd cut defence and abandon idiotic 7day full on NHS which IIRC you were in favour of @ JD dispute thread?
If i issued any other questions, feel free to repeat them as I'm on dodgy Italian 3g

I did? Regardless, supporting a better NHS is not supporting Hunt. Likewise, supporting better education is not the same as supporting Justine Greening and her proposed approaches.

[sidicks]

968 said:

Utterly bizarre but typical of your posting style, i.e. obfuscate by continually not answering the question but refusal to accept a contrary position.

I have answered the question - unlike you!
Do you think that everything the NHS does is essential? Does the NHS not already prioritise different treatments and could do this more aggressively?

968 said:

You support Hunt for one and have done on other such threads.

Evidence please...

968 said:

I am in no position to comment about other public services,

Yet you expect me to comment on the specifics of the NHS...

968 said:

I can only comment on the health services which I work in, both NHS and private sectors. I await further predictable obfuscation and self congratulation.

I await you actually answering the questions posed, but I guess I will be waiting a long time?

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 29th August 11:23

Edited by sidicks on Tuesday 29th August 11:25