Boris. £350m for the NHS if we leave EU. Again.
Discussion
Eddie Strohacker said:
It wasn't a question though, It was Deptford demonstrating for the umpteenth time his raw hostility towards people with a differing outlook to him. So yes whilst you & I eventually broke bread, it's fair that he gets pulled on his general approach. What I'm saying in a nice way is he's a f
king disgrace & that's why I generally ignore the hump. 
Its probably because I find you a disingenuous liar unable to back up your own claims and therefore have little respect for you.king disgrace & that's why I generally ignore the hump. Example being when you claimed an unrecoverable trade decline and then refused multiple people multiple times to say by how much and why. The simple answer is you couldn't back up such a claim but do like to turn up and do the daily doom story, then get pissy when people ask for evidence, bit like creationists do.
Then there is the advocating a second referendum and again getting pissy when asked if you voted for it at the election. To be fair here, you did kind of say no to voting LibDem , but then when and spoilt it all by getting the hump and calling it a ' trap' over your reasons for voting Tory or Labour when you talk about the ruination of the country and the economy. Again, you were free to have a perfectly sensible discussion but instead chose to call it a trap, that just says pathetic to me.
My fave was your chicken run in with Andy when you thought you'd bluff your way through a discussion ( well, your hysterics on chlorine chicken ) on standards. Andy made a simple short statement of something like ' standards are very similar in US/UK' to which you replied something along the lines of ' they are not' .
When you got to a point where you could no longer keep the bluff up, you come back and say you misread what he said and double down.
I find ///ajd and you to be the only two stand out idiot Remainers on the forum. All the rest seem reasonable and I can agree and disagree on various areas, but you two in particular have a style of posting that lacks any balance and just seems pure negative PR b
ks speak most of the time. With you two It reminds me of another PH poster who used to post a lot here. He once told me the UK construction sector was 90% reliant on immigrant workers. I and others how he got that figure and he ignored it knowing full well he had f
ked up and was being picked up on it. He carried on ignoring it ( sound familiar ? ) and then of course get the hump and got mad and eventually admitted he was wrong. What i found odd was that he clearly made it up to try and crush the debate and knew he was a liar for doing so, but seemingly thought the result was worth it because it would kill off the debate. That's a lot of what politics is and discussions with you. You are being picked up on your claims, I'm not. Deptford Draylons said:
I find ///ajd and you to be the only two stand out idiot Remainers on the forum. All the rest seem reasonable and I can agree and disagree on various areas, but you two in particular have a style of posting that lacks any balance and just seems pure negative PR bks speak most of the time.
Would you say there were any equivalent "stand out idiot Leavers" posting here, just to balance that out...?ks speak most of the time.Eddie Strohacker said:
Hot take on that: BoJo is gagging to resign.
Publicly he'll say it's all not happening fast enough, in reality, he's watching the whole thing fail, which it presently, clearly is & that leaves him as the white knight riding in to save Brexit. Hands up who thinks he's got the country's interests at heart?
I'd rather have a nakedly self-interested but positive and forward looking politician in charge than the regressive, recalcitrant, weak-willed and backward looking bunch we currently have running the show.Publicly he'll say it's all not happening fast enough, in reality, he's watching the whole thing fail, which it presently, clearly is & that leaves him as the white knight riding in to save Brexit. Hands up who thinks he's got the country's interests at heart?
The article in the Telegraph (the actual article, not the variously reported 'analyses' of it) was refreshingly positive - like about half the people I know are - about the possibilities of Britain after leaving the EU.
I don't like Boris much, his naked ambition being probably the least off-putting thing in a long list, but that article was a welcome change from the relentless tone of the media (and most politicians selected by the media to comment) on how terrible it'll all be and how we're making a terrible mistake.
For instance, what a difference to the 'Do you realise how f
ked we'll be without the EU' narrative that pervades public life a the moment was this:Boris said:
You don’t have to be some tub-thumping nationalist to worry that a transnational sense of allegiance can weaken the ties between us; and you don’t have to be an out and out nationalist to feel an immense pride in this country, and what it can do.
We have the biggest financial centre in this hemisphere – and by common consent we will still have one by the time the Brexit controversy is a distant memory. I have seen the prophets of doom proved wrong so many times.
I am not saying that all this will be some kind of cinch. I do not underestimate the scale of the task ahead as we take back control of our destiny. All I say is that they are in grievous error all those who write off this country, who think we don’t have it in us, who think that we lack the nerve and the confidence to tackle the task ahead.”
So yes, maybe it's part of his leadership bid, maybe it's designed to hit out at his colleagues - he's a politician, he's ambitious and Machiavellian, they're all like that. We have the biggest financial centre in this hemisphere – and by common consent we will still have one by the time the Brexit controversy is a distant memory. I have seen the prophets of doom proved wrong so many times.
I am not saying that all this will be some kind of cinch. I do not underestimate the scale of the task ahead as we take back control of our destiny. All I say is that they are in grievous error all those who write off this country, who think we don’t have it in us, who think that we lack the nerve and the confidence to tackle the task ahead.”
At least he's playing a positive game which makes a change from May's disastrous election campaign and the constant negative drone of the obsessive, chattering-class doom-mongers.
Mark Benson said:
So yes, maybe it's part of his leadership bid, maybe it's designed to hit out at his colleagues - he's a politician, he's ambitious and Machiavellian, they're all like that.
At least he's playing a positive game which makes a change from May's disastrous election campaign and the constant negative drone of the obsessive, chattering-class doom-mongers.
No, they are NOT all like that,At least he's playing a positive game which makes a change from May's disastrous election campaign and the constant negative drone of the obsessive, chattering-class doom-mongers.
Tony Blair and Tony Benn we're definitely not like that
TooMany2cvs said:
Deptford Draylons said:
I find ///ajd and you to be the only two stand out idiot Remainers on the forum. All the rest seem reasonable and I can agree and disagree on various areas, but you two in particular have a style of posting that lacks any balance and just seems pure negative PR bks speak most of the time.
Would you say there were any equivalent "stand out idiot Leavers" posting here, just to balance that out...?ks speak most of the time.Deptford Draylons said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Deptford Draylons said:
I find ///ajd and you to be the only two stand out idiot Remainers on the forum. All the rest seem reasonable and I can agree and disagree on various areas, but you two in particular have a style of posting that lacks any balance and just seems pure negative PR bks speak most of the time.
Would you say there were any equivalent "stand out idiot Leavers" posting here, just to balance that out...?ks speak most of the time.
Even now it's about me or the other feller. Obsessive obsessional remains obsessed.
Eddie Strohacker said:
Deptford Draylons said:
TooMany2cvs said:
Deptford Draylons said:
I find ///ajd and you to be the only two stand out idiot Remainers on the forum. All the rest seem reasonable and I can agree and disagree on various areas, but you two in particular have a style of posting that lacks any balance and just seems pure negative PR bks speak most of the time.
Would you say there were any equivalent "stand out idiot Leavers" posting here, just to balance that out...?ks speak most of the time.Even now it's about me or the other feller. Obsessive obsessional remains obsessed.
TTwiggy said:
Every day seems to bring news of another resignation by a key member of the exit team. We have no negotiators in place and the government is still split on what sort of Brexit to go for.
How many people do you think are working through this process both at the UK/EU negotiations and then back at home?There are hundreds of people, mostly working through the technical aspects, the people you see grandstanding on the podium are hardly involved most of the time, they are there to give guidance, they are not doing the negotiation or writing up the agreements.
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave, so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
All you are seeing in the press is spin, it's pretty pathetic but don't expect anything else until this process is over. Lots of coffee will be drunk in the last night and miraculously they will bash out a deal, having to ratify before the end of the two years will also be fudged, with ratification being pushed beyond the two years after their miraculous all night session.
This is the way of the EU, it always works this way, quite often a few weeks before the deadline you get some poor soul on TV in tears about how they worked so hard but didn't make enough progress and all is lost, the Canada deal is the last one we saw this nonsense trotted out. Next thing you know its all sorted and away we go. You could write a script for this nonsense and see it played out without the actors ever seeing it.
TTwiggy said:
But all that aside, what was the deal with that st about POW camps and gilded cages?
I think it might be assuming you have benefited from the EU, and so are willing to take the few benefits to you personally at the expense of everyone else who is suffering?t about POW camps and gilded cages?jsf said:
How many people do you think are working through this process both at the UK/EU negotiations and then back at home?
There are hundreds of people, mostly working through the technical aspects, the people you see grandstanding on the podium are hardly involved most of the time, they are there to give guidance, they are not doing the negotiation or writing up the agreements.
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave, so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
All you are seeing in the press is spin, it's pretty pathetic but don't expect anything else until this process is over. Lots of coffee will be drunk in the last night and miraculously they will bash out a deal, having to ratify before the end of the two years will also be fudged, with ratification being pushed beyond the two years after their miraculous all night session.
This is the way of the EU, it always works this way, quite often a few weeks before the deadline you get some poor soul on TV in tears about how they worked so hard but didn't make enough progress and all is lost, the Canada deal is the last one we saw this nonsense trotted out. Next thing you know its all sorted and away we go. You could write a script for this nonsense and see it played out without the actors ever seeing it.
Obviously there is a lot going on in the background, but you have obviously not been involved in a badly organised/managed project based on your comments. Things usually work out, but with good management and clear responsibilities etc it will produce much better results, and much happier workers who are more efficient. There are hundreds of people, mostly working through the technical aspects, the people you see grandstanding on the podium are hardly involved most of the time, they are there to give guidance, they are not doing the negotiation or writing up the agreements.
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave, so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
All you are seeing in the press is spin, it's pretty pathetic but don't expect anything else until this process is over. Lots of coffee will be drunk in the last night and miraculously they will bash out a deal, having to ratify before the end of the two years will also be fudged, with ratification being pushed beyond the two years after their miraculous all night session.
This is the way of the EU, it always works this way, quite often a few weeks before the deadline you get some poor soul on TV in tears about how they worked so hard but didn't make enough progress and all is lost, the Canada deal is the last one we saw this nonsense trotted out. Next thing you know its all sorted and away we go. You could write a script for this nonsense and see it played out without the actors ever seeing it.
jsf said:
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave
Right, and...?jsf said:
so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
I think you mis-spelled "migrants".I presume this EHIC agreement doesn't just apply to UK nationals who are immigrants to other EU countries and nationals of other EU countries who have emigrated to the UK, but applies to all other travellers, for whatever period of time, too?
So are you going to spill the secrets of this deal, or would you have to kill us...?
TooMany2cvs said:
jsf said:
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave
Right, and...?jsf said:
so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
I think you mis-spelled "migrants".I presume this EHIC agreement doesn't just apply to UK nationals who are immigrants to other EU countries and nationals of other EU countries who have emigrated to the UK, but applies to all other travellers, for whatever period of time, too?
So are you going to spill the secrets of this deal, or would you have to kill us...?
The last round of talks produced this document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-politic...
The EHIC agreement is on page 11
All the documents on the this are open to all to read, but most people don't, which is how the press are getting away with spinning to their agenda. It also shows that when Barnier stated nothing had progressed during the last round, he was lying.
If you want to read them all you can by going to this web page. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/brexit-negotiation...
NRS said:
Obviously there is a lot going on in the background, but you have obviously not been involved in a badly organised/managed project based on your comments. Things usually work out, but with good management and clear responsibilities etc it will produce much better results, and much happier workers who are more efficient.
I used to sit in meetings with large numbers of people from various companies when I worked in IT, for example where we discussed the design and implementation of large scale integrated systems for major high street retailers costing millions, these systems could bankrupt the companies involved if they went wrong either before implementation or once in service, they also drove profits significantly higher when successful. I understand fully the complexities of trying to get everyone to work towards the end goal in the most organised manner, it takes hard work and the willingness to achieve.When you have parties involved that want to scupper progress, the task becomes much more difficult, you then have to find a way to deal with that to bring the project forward to a satisfactory conclusion.
jsf said:
TooMany2cvs said:
jsf said:
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave
Right, and...?jsf said:
so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
I think you mis-spelled "migrants".I presume this EHIC agreement doesn't just apply to UK nationals who are immigrants to other EU countries and nationals of other EU countries who have emigrated to the UK, but applies to all other travellers, for whatever period of time, too?
So are you going to spill the secrets of this deal, or would you have to kill us...?
The last round of talks produced this document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/beta-politic...
The EHIC agreement is on page 11
jsf said:
All the documents on the this are open to all to read, but most people don't, which is how the press are getting away with spinning to their agenda. It also shows that when Barnier stated nothing had progressed during the last round, he was lying.
What he actually appears to have said was "far from real progress"... Subtle, but important distinction. However, since the press are almost uniformly staunchly pro-brexit, lies in that regard are probably not unsurprising.Let's face it, the real difference is not one of opinion on whether progress is slow or not, but on which side is slowing it down, and why.
Leavers believe that it's the EU trying to sabotage the UK.
Remainers understand that it's the UK simply being unprepared.
TooMany2cvs said:
What he actually appears to have said was "far from real progress"... Subtle, but important distinction. However, since the press are almost uniformly staunchly pro-brexit, lies in that regard are probably not unsurprising.
Let's face it, the real difference is not one of opinion on whether progress is slow or not, but on which side is slowing it down, and why.
Leavers believe that it's the EU trying to sabotage the UK.
Remainers understand that it's the UK simply being unprepared.
Both sides of that argument are nonsense. It's perfectly clear what game is being played.Let's face it, the real difference is not one of opinion on whether progress is slow or not, but on which side is slowing it down, and why.
Leavers believe that it's the EU trying to sabotage the UK.
Remainers understand that it's the UK simply being unprepared.
What I try to do, sometimes I fail of course, is to cut through the crap and get to the reality of the situation. When you do that and have the time to watch the full interviews and briefings, read the documents etc. you can then compare the edited content put out by the press, it's shocking how the output is being manipulated to spin a story.
Most people just don't have the interest or capacity of time to see what is being filtered and manipulated, I think its criminal but its been the norm for a long time now. Anyone who has a deep understanding of their trade knows that what the press put out is garbage, but it appears that doesn't translate to questioning other content they have little knowledge of for a large proportion of the population, so the distortion isn't held to account.
TooMany2cvs said:
Leavers believe that it's the EU trying to sabotage the UK.
Remainers understand that it's the UK simply being unprepared.
It's pretty clear with as objective a face as I can manage that the UK is woefully underprepared. On a pragmatic level, I can't hold this against the Government. Cameron clearly set out his stall that we would be remaining in, precluding any great contingency planning. However, chuck in a compete lack of foresight on what happens next, a forty year deficit on negotiators, a criminally wasteful general election & a resulting near fatally wounded government increasingly riven by factionalism & it will be a miracle if anything of real substance is achieved within the two year window at all.Remainers understand that it's the UK simply being unprepared.
I find even the least optimistic Brexiteers hard to credit when you can get them off the minutiae of this document or that proposal & turn their faces to the bigger picture. Much better to blame the press, even though it's overwhelmingly pro Brexit or unpatriotic remainers, saboteurs etc. etc.
TooMany2cvs said:
jsf said:
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave
Right, and...?jsf said:
so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
I think you mis-spelled "migrants".I presume this EHIC agreement doesn't just apply to UK nationals who are immigrants to other EU countries and nationals of other EU countries who have emigrated to the UK, but applies to all other travellers, for whatever period of time, too?
A quote from the UK web site:
http://www.nhs.uk/nhsengland/healthcareabroad/ehic...
“A valid European Health Insurance Card gives you the right to access state-provided healthcare during a temporary stay in another European Economic Area (EEA) country or Switzerland.”
That is very unlikely to apply to many EU immigrants in the UK or UK emigrants in the EU.
If you read more there is agreement on continuing cover for those working. Further the eligibility for access to healthcare in the UK is likely to mean it will cover all EU citizens in the UK so long as they are resident. The situation is still unknown for those UK resident in the EU who are over 65 and currently covered by the S1 system.
Mrr T said:
TooMany2cvs said:
jsf said:
Just an example of the sort of thing that is being done, they have already agreed how the EHIC will work once we leave
Right, and...?jsf said:
so the issue of health care costing for ex-pats on both sides is done.
I think you mis-spelled "migrants".I presume this EHIC agreement doesn't just apply to UK nationals who are immigrants to other EU countries and nationals of other EU countries who have emigrated to the UK, but applies to all other travellers, for whatever period of time, too?
A quote from the UK web site:
http://www.nhs.uk/nhsengland/healthcareabroad/ehic...
“A valid European Health Insurance Card gives you the right to access state-provided healthcare during a temporary stay in another European Economic Area (EEA) country or Switzerland.”
That is very unlikely to apply to many EU immigrants in the UK or UK emigrants in the EU.
If you read more there is agreement on continuing cover for those working. Further the eligibility for access to healthcare in the UK is likely to mean it will cover all EU citizens in the UK so long as they are resident. The situation is still unknown for those UK resident in the EU who are over 65 and currently covered by the S1 system.
Eddie Strohacker said:
It's pretty clear with as objective a face as I can manage that the UK is woefully underprepared. On a pragmatic level, I can't hold this against the Government. Cameron clearly set out his stall that we would be remaining in, precluding any great contingency planning.
I'd agree it can't be held against Cameron's government...But they've not been in power for over a year now, and May's government is stuffed with those who spent the preceding year or more campaigning to be allowed to do exactly this... They damn well SHOULD have been prepared... As should the civil service, at least as a contingency in the early days of the referendum. But, of course, the civil service simply do the political bidding - that's where the failings are.
jsf said:
I used to sit in meetings with large numbers of people from various companies when I worked in IT, for example where we discussed the design and implementation of large scale integrated systems for major high street retailers costing millions, these systems could bankrupt the companies involved if they went wrong either before implementation or once in service, they also drove profits significantly higher when successful. I understand fully the complexities of trying to get everyone to work towards the end goal in the most organised manner, it takes hard work and the willingness to achieve.
When you have parties involved that want to scupper progress, the task becomes much more difficult, you then have to find a way to deal with that to bring the project forward to a satisfactory conclusion.
I don't disagree with your sentiments; before I founded my own company in the UK and aligned it with other members of my Family's businesses, I used to Chair Meetings involving Government representatives and Senior figures from large companies involved in multi-million £ projects. From what I have seen of progress in the documents produced by the EU so far, they very strongly suggest that not much has been achieved and we are still in the pre-amble stage dealing with the less complex issues. When you have parties involved that want to scupper progress, the task becomes much more difficult, you then have to find a way to deal with that to bring the project forward to a satisfactory conclusion.
I would have expected to be touching on larger issues by now.
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