And...It's Spain.. will it kick off ?

[Ken Figenus]

This is all about the innate right to 'self' determination, not determination by others. 1 person can end a relationship without the other person agreeing....cant they? If that is what is best for them...(then add history if it was a forced marriage soon after the siege of Barcelona)?

The Spanish establishment continually refuses its Catalan citizens the right to choose. This then makes the law corrupt and shows it is not there to protect citizens rights but to control them.

A Catalan official said “Franco may have died in bed in 1975, but sociologically, he is still alive”. A suggestion from Jose Ignacio Wert, who was education minister until June, was that Catalan children needed to be “re-Spanishised”.... Yeurch

[Ayahuasca]

Qué?

[Ken Figenus]

¿Que tal? ¿Tu no comprendes señor? Sorry if it seems like some random thoughts! Have not been on the sauce - promise!

[Derek Smith]

Ken Figenus said:

This is all about the innate right to 'self' determination, not determination by others. 1 person can end a relationship without the other person agreeing....cant they? If that is what is best for them...(then add history if it was a forced marriage soon after the siege of Barcelona)?

The Spanish establishment continually refuses its Catalan citizens the right to choose. This then makes the law corrupt and shows it is not there to protect citizens rights but to control them.

A Catalan official said “Franco may have died in bed in 1975, but sociologically, he is still alive”. A suggestion from Jose Ignacio Wert, who was education minister until June, was that Catalan children needed to be “re-Spanishised”.... Yeurch

I live in Sussex. If Kent wanted to become independent then I'd have something to say about it. Kent is in my country. Just because a person lives there does not give them the right to take away a bit of my country.

[Ken Figenus]

Kent is a county and has never been an autonomous country with its own system of government and own language. Unlike Catalunya.

Its East Anglia rumbles you want to watch out for - fulll of ex Vikings

[wc98]

Derek Smith said:

I live in Sussex. If Kent wanted to become independent then I'd have something to say about it. Kent is in my country. Just because a person lives there does not give them the right to take away a bit of my country.

the irony is if there was a referendum the likely result would be no. would save a lot of future problems if they just got on with a legal one. all the spaniards i know (all 5 of them, so not a large opinion poll ) take this view.

[Carl_Manchester]

Police to seize polling stations and arrests of officials have been made.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-c...

[Ayahuasca]

Ken Figenus said:

Kent is a county and has never been an autonomous country with its own system of government and own language. Unlike Catalunya.

Its East Anglia rumbles you want to watch out for - fulll of ex Vikings

When was Catalonia an autonomous country?

Granted, it has a Spanish dialect, but so do other parts of Spain. France also has regional languages, for that matter.

[Stickyfinger]

Derek Smith said:

I live in Sussex. If Kent wanted to become independent then I'd have something to say about it. Kent is in my country. Just because a person lives there does not give them the right to take away a bit of my country.

Falklands
Gibraltar
Scotland

What did you say when they voted ?

[ou sont les biscuits]

Ken Figenus said:

This is all about the innate right to 'self' determination, not determination by others. 1 person can end a relationship without the other person agreeing....cant they? If that is what is best for them...(then add history if it was a forced marriage soon after the siege of Barcelona)?

The Spanish establishment continually refuses its Catalan citizens the right to choose. This then makes the law corrupt and shows it is not there to protect citizens rights but to control them.

A Catalan official said “Franco may have died in bed in 1975, but sociologically, he is still alive”. A suggestion from Jose Ignacio Wert, who was education minister until June, was that Catalan children needed to be “re-Spanishised”.... Yeurch

Innate right to self determination? Yes we all have that inside a democratic construct. Operate outside the democratic construct and all you have is anarchy. The minority government in the Catalan Parliament is operating outside the democratic construct. As for your comments about the siege of Barcelona, go back a bit further in history and you'll find that Catalunya was part of the Kingdom of Aragon long before that. AFAIK, it has never been truly independent.

"The Spanish establishment continually refuses its Catalan citizens the right to choose". Last time I checked, there was an autonomous parliament in Catalunya, elected only by Catalans. The powers it currently has were negotiated with the government of the day back when it was established post transition. They had the chance to take the same sort of financial powers as the Basques currently have (which gives them more say over finances than the Catalans) but turned it down. I think someone mentioned on one of the interminable series of television programmes about this whole mess here in Spain is that there have been something like thirty of forty democratic votes in Catalunya since the transition, so the whole idea that the Catalans can't make democratic choices is just a load of tosh.

As for your final paragraph, Catalan officials say a lot of things that are just wrong. If you don't believe me, google some of the recent speeches (and indeed letters to the Spanish Government) by Puigdemont and Junqueras (the number one and two) in the Generalitat relating to the independence debate. They look a bit like Laurel and Hardy but aren't anywhere near as funny. They are long on whipping up the masses, spouting half-truths and spin, and short on facts.

Just to add Junqueras isn't actually the official No2 anymore. He's been removed so that he can't be charged with the offences that he has committed which at the last count were Sedición, Prevaricación, Malversación and Desobedencia. Or in English, sedition and malfeasance.

[Wills2]

Stickyfinger said:

Derek Smith said:

I live in Sussex. If Kent wanted to become independent then I'd have something to say about it. Kent is in my country. Just because a person lives there does not give them the right to take away a bit of my country.

Falklands
Gibraltar
Scotland

What did you say when they voted ?

Those referendums were sanctioned by the UK government, were they not?

[Stickyfinger]

Wills2 said:

Those referendums were sanctioned by the UK government, were they not?

Only because the populations demonstrated a wish for them. Forgive me but is that wish not being demonstrated in this instance ? In the recent past has this wish not been a constant but equally, constantly prevented and at times brutally prevented ?

[Wills2]

Stickyfinger said:

Wills2 said:

Those referendums were sanctioned by the UK government, were they not?

Only because the populations demonstrated a wish for them. Forgive me but is that wish not being demonstrated in this instance ? In the recent past has this wish not been a constant but equally, constantly prevented and at times brutally prevented ?

If the democratically elected government and the courts say that the referendum cannot be held then it can't be held, they have every right to uphold the law.

[Derek Smith]

Carl_Manchester said:

Police to seize polling stations and arrests of officials have been made.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-spain-politics-c...

One gets a feeling of tick, tick, tick. The problem has been put on the pending pile.

The UK has done a lot of things that I disagreed with and often thought inept. The Scottish referendum however was a master stroke. I can't think of one other country that has allowed a significant proportion of its population to vote to secede or not.

[Stickyfinger]

Wills2 said:

If the democratically elected government and the courts say that the referendum cannot be held then it can't be held, they have every right to uphold the law.

Without it there will be insurrection, this is always the way. It is the duty of the democratic to allow free choice and provide it under fair and safe rules, it strikes me that significant demand exists to test their democratic principles as happened within the United Kingdom and those two "protectorates".

Edited by Stickyfinger on Thursday 28th September 22:02

[Ayahuasca]

Wills2 said:

Stickyfinger said:

Wills2 said:

Those referendums were sanctioned by the UK government, were they not?

Only because the populations demonstrated a wish for them. Forgive me but is that wish not being demonstrated in this instance ? In the recent past has this wish not been a constant but equally, constantly prevented and at times brutally prevented ?

If the democratically elected government and the courts say that the referendum cannot be held then it can't be held, they have every right to uphold the law.

I think I am right in saying that the UK Govt recently said it would not authorize a second Scottish referendum anytime soon.

I don't think the immediate reaction of the SNP was to call a second referendum without authorization.

Because that is not how we British (I obviously use the term loosely) do things.

Your average Latin, though, is not such a habitual rule-follower.

[Kermit power]

Wills2 said:

Stickyfinger said:

Wills2 said:

Those referendums were sanctioned by the UK government, were they not?

Only because the populations demonstrated a wish for them. Forgive me but is that wish not being demonstrated in this instance ? In the recent past has this wish not been a constant but equally, constantly prevented and at times brutally prevented ?

If the democratically elected government and the courts say that the referendum cannot be held then it can't be held, they have every right to uphold the law.

That is, of course, theoretically correct.

Where that position starts to run into difficulties is where a minority group in society realises that whatever happens, they are not going to get their way through democratic change.

Imagine the Antiginge Party being elected to power at the next General Election with a manifesto commitment to say that all Gingers will be charged a 50% surcharge in income tax and will have to wear a big badge on their clothing saying "I apologise for my hideous hair colour".

If the rest of us voted for it, would it be reasonable, given that Gingers will never be the majority of the population, and would therefore never have a chance of democratically changing the position without the support of non-Gingers, to simply say "well that's what the democratic government has decided"?

The above is a deliberately absurd example, of course, but is the Catalan situation really all that different? There will never be enough Catalans to vote through Catalan independence without the support of non-Catalan Spaniards, but why on earth would the rest of Spain vote to allow the goose that lays the golden eggs to secede? It's hardly democratic choice for the people of Catalonia, is it?

[Stickyfinger]

No, that is a "Human Rights" issue......and as such the minority is protected by law and should also be protected by the morals of the elected representatives and the society.

[TooMany2cvs]

Ayahuasca said:

When was Catalonia an autonomous country?

Not since uniting with Aragon in 1137.

[psi310398]

TooMany2cvs said:

Not since uniting with Aragon in 1137.

When presumably the Catalan serfs were consulted by the relevant monarch?