And...It's Spain.. will it kick off ?
Discussion
Stickyfinger said:
Yipper said:
The Catalonia prez has kicked the can down the road for 2 weeks.
Spain special forces have threatened to raid and arrest him and he's bottled it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cat...
It is not about "bottle" however is it......it is a big question for Spain and Catalonia.Spain special forces have threatened to raid and arrest him and he's bottled it.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cat...
He has done the correct thing and put the ball back to Spain to prove they are worthy of the Catalans wishing to be part of the country.
Catalonia is going to end up like Kosovo -- in a permanent state of victimhood and attention-seeking from the international community... but never actually going independent.
SystemParanoia said:
a civil war could spread throughout the EU as nations take 'sides' along historical allegiances.
I can't see that happening, one of the benefits of being a member of the EU was the peace and stability the union provides for all the EU members. I can recall reading something along those lines in a pamphlet that appeared on the doormat some time ago, apparently it cost the taxpayer £9million, I'll be a tad peeved if it turns out the contents of the pamphlet was incorrect.
johnxjsc1985 said:
It appears Franco's Spain is still just below the surface and violence is just around the Corner. Can you imagine tanks on the streets of Barcelona well it could be just a few weeks away.
This democracy stuff is ok as long as you do as they say.
Franco's Spain?This democracy stuff is ok as long as you do as they say.
Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
johnfm said:
Franco's Spain?
Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
Let's guess. The Catalans and other socialist/communist undesirables were shaking things up and Franco, as the nation's saviour, had to step in to restore order and sadly had to crack a few heads for the next forty years? Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
johnfm said:
Franco's Spain?
Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
36-39 followed by 36 years of Franco rule you mean or a leftist revolution and a rightist counter revolution. Spain had a really complex political situation going back to the early 1800's which I don't have that much knowledge about. But violence is not unusual in Spain .Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
psi310398 said:
johnfm said:
Franco's Spain?
Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
Let's guess. The Catalans and other socialist/communist undesirables were shaking things up and Franco, as the nation's saviour, had to step in to restore order and sadly had to crack a few heads for the next forty years? Do you know why there was violence in Spain in the 1930s?
The sitting government failed to deal with the anarchists - who were murdering business owners and 'taking the means of production' at the time.
The military stepped in because, rightly, some order had to be restored.
People in Barcelona have a constant reminder of Franco looking over them in Montjuïc Castle. I visited there 30 years ago on my first trip to Barcelona. It's now a municipal building but was used mainly as a political prison during Franco's regime, hundreds of Catalans were imprisoned, tortured and executed there. It was only 10 years before that Franco was still in charge there, it's still recent history.
I don't see whatever happens in Spain escalating outside the region, I just hope sense prevails and something is worked out, but it will need movement in Madrid for that to happen.
I don't see whatever happens in Spain escalating outside the region, I just hope sense prevails and something is worked out, but it will need movement in Madrid for that to happen.
According to radio 4 today there were quite a few snp MPs present during the illegal referendum.
They said it matter of factory and moved on.
I know I'm a bit thick but surely this is scandal elected MPs from another country supporting an illegal vote?
They also said at the conference they had been ordered to be quiet because Spain could veto Scotland from joining the eu if they ever become independent in revenge.
Much principles, we support Catalan but we will pretend we don't so there are no bad consequences..
Must just be me.
They said it matter of factory and moved on.
I know I'm a bit thick but surely this is scandal elected MPs from another country supporting an illegal vote?
They also said at the conference they had been ordered to be quiet because Spain could veto Scotland from joining the eu if they ever become independent in revenge.
Much principles, we support Catalan but we will pretend we don't so there are no bad consequences..
Must just be me.
What is there to negotiate???
The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
gadgetmac said:
What is there to negotiate???
The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
It is not about what the Catalan Gov/Spanish Government want however is it....The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
A permitted vote will show what The PEOPLE wish to happen, it is then up to the politicians to work towards/provide a solution ....it is why they are elected remember.
The very same reason Little Miss Crankie has lost a lot of her influence/effect/worth outside of Scotland
Stickyfinger said:
gadgetmac said:
What is there to negotiate???
The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
It is not about what the Catalan Gov/Spanish Government want however is it....The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
A permitted vote will show what The PEOPLE wish to happen, it is then up to the politicians to work towards/provide a solution ....it is why they are elected remember.
The very same reason Little Miss Crankie has lost a lot of her influence/effect/worth outside of Scotland
So, i say again, where’s the middle ground?
gadgetmac said:
But a vote by only the people of catalonia is a red line for the spanish govt. indeed any vote at all is a red line. By allowing that you accept that the people of catalonia have the sole right to determine the regions future status.
So, i say again, where’s the middle ground?
The only middle ground is a proper vote. Indeed the separatists don't see a reason for another vote as they've already won the day and the Spanish don't want to give them a vote. Therefore this will be a middle ground.So, i say again, where’s the middle ground?
johnfm said:
No need to guess.
The sitting government failed to deal with the anarchists - who were murdering business owners and 'taking the means of production' at the time.
The military stepped in because, rightly, some order had to be restored.
That does not correspond with any account of the civil war I've read. A combination of the great depression, attempting to wrest the dead hand of the catholic church from everyday life and reduce the size and influence of the military plus the more loony end of the socialists being as useful as the term anarchist implies reduced popular support for these reforms and weakened the elected government, weakness exploited by an opportunist combination of top brass, landowners and the church.The sitting government failed to deal with the anarchists - who were murdering business owners and 'taking the means of production' at the time.
The military stepped in because, rightly, some order had to be restored.
Think Pugiemont played it very well - especially giving the backstory to the world. But what a stalemate.
Spain has been shown for what it is, and it it can be very ugly indeed and that helps explain the calls for Independence. It has been beyond revelatory to see the Castillian mindset on this - and often from friends too - and this explains the Catalans desires clearly.,
Staggered that the Spanish ruling party's PR guy Pablo Casado reminded the world of what happened to previous Catalan leader Lluis Companys - he was imprisoned for 30 years and then executed in 1940 when the Nazis kindly handed him back to Spain from his exile in France. ¡Tu duermes con los peces!
Just can you imagine any of this type of mindset and behaviour emanating from Westminster? Ohh but its perfectly fine in Spain - 'Spain is more complex' my friends tell me! But they will never put this genie back in the bottle - its kicking and screaming to get out now more than ever.
Spain has been shown for what it is, and it it can be very ugly indeed and that helps explain the calls for Independence. It has been beyond revelatory to see the Castillian mindset on this - and often from friends too - and this explains the Catalans desires clearly.,
Staggered that the Spanish ruling party's PR guy Pablo Casado reminded the world of what happened to previous Catalan leader Lluis Companys - he was imprisoned for 30 years and then executed in 1940 when the Nazis kindly handed him back to Spain from his exile in France. ¡Tu duermes con los peces!
Just can you imagine any of this type of mindset and behaviour emanating from Westminster? Ohh but its perfectly fine in Spain - 'Spain is more complex' my friends tell me! But they will never put this genie back in the bottle - its kicking and screaming to get out now more than ever.
gadgetmac said:
What is there to negotiate???
The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
The declaration of Independence last night has I think torpedoed any chance of dialogue, even though it has been suspended. I was watching one of the 'heavyweight' political discussion programmes last night - admittedly a programme made outside Catalunya - the general consensus was 'Dialogue, yes, but in the context of the rule of law'. The two sides are diametrically opposed to each other.
Nothing short of complete independence from spain will satisfy the catalonian govt, a scenario completely unacceptable to the spanish govt.
Where’s the middle ground, catalonia already has a large degree of autonomy?
Having declared independence the Catalans have put themselves outside the rule of law.
We'll find out this afternoon what the response from the Government will be when Rajoy makes a statement to Parliament, but it looks like all the big political parties, Partido Popular, PSOE and Ciudadanos will be supporting a move to suspend the Catalan Parlament via the implementation of article 155. Podemos won't support any such vote, but that isn't a surprise. They aren't really a grown up political party.
I'd also expect a Judge somewhere to be asking Puigdemont for a no coffee no biscuits chat about charges of sedition and possibly rebellion.
This s
t is about to get serious.hidetheelephants said:
That does not correspond with any account of the civil war I've read. A combination of the great depression, attempting to wrest the dead hand of the catholic church from everyday life and reduce the size and influence of the military plus the more loony end of the socialists being as useful as the term anarchist implies reduced popular support for these reforms and weakened the elected government, weakness exploited by an opportunist combination of top brass, landowners and the church.
Not sure what you are reading that doesn't cover the rise of violent anarchists in Madrid and elsewhere. ou sont les biscuits said:
The declaration of Independence last night has I think torpedoed any chance of dialogue, even though it has been suspended. I was watching one of the 'heavyweight' political discussion programmes last night - admittedly a programme made outside Catalunya - the general consensus was 'Dialogue, yes, but in the context of the rule of law'.
Having declared independence the Catalans have put themselves outside the rule of law.
We'll find out this afternoon what the response from the Government will be when Rajoy makes a statement to Parliament, but it looks like all the big political parties, Partido Popular, PSOE and Ciudadanos will be supporting a move to suspend the Catalan Parlament via the implementation of article 155. Podemos won't support any such vote, but that isn't a surprise. They aren't really a grown up political party.
I'd also expect a Judge somewhere to be asking Puigdemont for a no coffee no biscuits chat about charges of sedition and possibly rebellion.
This st is about to get serious.
This in contrast to the Madrid that was open to having talks before? And the "ok because it's legal" granny bashing that has gone on?Having declared independence the Catalans have put themselves outside the rule of law.
We'll find out this afternoon what the response from the Government will be when Rajoy makes a statement to Parliament, but it looks like all the big political parties, Partido Popular, PSOE and Ciudadanos will be supporting a move to suspend the Catalan Parlament via the implementation of article 155. Podemos won't support any such vote, but that isn't a surprise. They aren't really a grown up political party.
I'd also expect a Judge somewhere to be asking Puigdemont for a no coffee no biscuits chat about charges of sedition and possibly rebellion.
This s
t is about to get serious.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff