And...It's Spain.. will it kick off ?

[Pesty]

jsf said:

They were there as international observers. http://www.catalannews.com/politics/item/over-100-...

Thank you.

[ou sont les biscuits]

NRS said:

This in contrast to the Madrid that was open to having talks before? And the "ok because it's legal" granny bashing that has gone on?

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

As it happens, both Rajoy and Pedro Sanchez (leader of PSOE) have today announced the start of a dialogue on how the Constitution can be reformed. The whole of Catalan society will be interested in the progress of that particular 'procés'. Note that both Rajoy and Sanchez agree on triggering article 155, once Puigdemont has in fact confirmed that what was signed yesterday is in fact a declaration of independence. There is some confusion as to what in legal terms the document signed by Puigdemeont and others actually is.

That Commission for Constitutional reform is more likely to lead to a solution to the current issues in Catalunya than anything that Puigdemont and his cronies come up with.

Article from El Pais. In Spanish. Google translate is your friend.

https://politica.elpais.com/politica/2017/10/11/ac...

[SpeckledJim]

ou sont les biscuits said:

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

But that's analogous to saying "you can't ever have what you want".

Taking that line will inevitably spur a response.

[TooMany2cvs]

SpeckledJim said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

But that's analogous to saying "you can't ever have what you want".

Not at all. You can lobby to change the law, getting electoral support for it, with candidates being elected. Then, when the law is changed, you can achieve your goal within the law.

[SpeckledJim]

TooMany2cvs said:

SpeckledJim said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

But that's analogous to saying "you can't ever have what you want".

Not at all. You can lobby to change the law, getting electoral support for it, with candidates being elected. Then, when the law is changed, you can achieve your goal within the law.

Yes, but the line is that the referendum on Catalan independence has to be nationwide. When Catalonia pays the bills, the rest of the country won't rush to vote them out.

A more grown-up approach, IMO, would be to allow Catalonia a proper, organised referendum, with honest, free debate from both camps.

At least then at the end of the day all sides know the true position, and Spain has been seen to be listening. At the moment, both sides are claiming a relevant majority, but the constituency hasn't been settled.

[NRS]

TooMany2cvs said:

SpeckledJim said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

But that's analogous to saying "you can't ever have what you want".

Not at all. You can lobby to change the law, getting electoral support for it, with candidates being elected. Then, when the law is changed, you can achieve your goal within the law.

When you represent a minority in the overall country and the government don't want to talk you can't do it democratically... A somewhat similar thing is happening to the Kurds now.

[ou sont les biscuits]

SpeckledJim said:

TooMany2cvs said:

SpeckledJim said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

But that's analogous to saying "you can't ever have what you want".

Not at all. You can lobby to change the law, getting electoral support for it, with candidates being elected. Then, when the law is changed, you can achieve your goal within the law.

Yes, but the line is that the referendum on Catalan independence has to be nationwide. When Catalonia pays the bills, the rest of the country won't rush to vote them out.

A more grown-up approach, IMO, would be to allow Catalonia a proper, organised referendum, with honest, free debate from both camps.

At least then at the end of the day all sides know the true position, and Spain has been seen to be listening. At the moment, both sides are claiming a relevant majority, but the constituency hasn't been settled.

Read the bit of my post above about Constitutional reform.

They are serious about doing this, because it is the only way forward. Irrespective of whether a majority in Catalunya want to stay in Spain or secede, the only way to make most of them happy is via reform of the constitution.

The problem in the short term though is the likely imposition of direct rule, and how that goes down in Catalunya.

[Ken Figenus]

ou sont les biscuits said:

Read the bit of my post above about Constitutional reform.

They are serious about doing this, because it is the only way forward. Irrespective of whether a majority in Catalunya want to stay in Spain or secede, the only way to make most of them happy is via reform of the constitution.

The problem in the short term though is the likely imposition of direct rule, and how that goes down in Catalunya.

Wow! Do you genuinely think that there is the appetite and mindset to enact the kind of constitutional tweaks that we did in UK to permit a Scottish Independence referendum? You have your ear close to the ground there - is that remotely on the cards???

[ou sont les biscuits]

Ken Figenus said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Read the bit of my post above about Constitutional reform.

They are serious about doing this, because it is the only way forward. Irrespective of whether a majority in Catalunya want to stay in Spain or secede, the only way to make most of them happy is via reform of the constitution.

The problem in the short term though is the likely imposition of direct rule, and how that goes down in Catalunya.

Wow! Do you genuinely think that there is the appetite and mindset to enact the kind of constitutional tweaks that we did in UK to permit a Scottish Independence referendum? You have your ear close to the ground there - is that remotely on the cards???

Yes, I think it's on the cards. As I said above, the Catalan issue isn't going to go away, and something has to be done that will keep most of the Catalans happy. You won't be able to please all of them, because some like those in the CUP and a chunk of those who support the JxSi coalition don't want anything but an independent republic. But I suspect that there are many who just want a bit more local power, and to keep a bit more of their money. And events over the past few days will have made many think twice. The fact that all bar one of the Catalan companies listed in the IBEX 35 have either moved or plan to move their legal domiciles outside Catalunya seems to have concentrated minds wonderfully. As the Catalans say, La pela es la pela.

As for how this proposal for constitutional reform has come about, I suspect that it's the PSOE price for supporting Rajoy over direct rule. I'm not sure that Rajoy would have kicked this off on his own without a bit of a push. He isn't naturally proactive, quite the reverse. But given this has just come out today, we'll need to wait and see how the political analysts call it.

[Yipper]

Catalonia won't get independence. They are just going to get bogged down in perpetual talks, like Kosovo. The world's press is already moving on to other things, like Harvey Weinstein.

[SpeckledJim]

ou sont les biscuits said:

Yes, I think it's on the cards. As I said above, the Catalan issue isn't going to go away, and something has to be done that will keep most of the Catalans happy. You won't be able to please all of them, because some like those in the CUP and a chunk of those who support the JxSi coalition don't want anything but an independent republic. But I suspect that there are many who just want a bit more local power, and to keep a bit more of their money. And events over the past few days will have made many think twice. The fact that all bar one of the Catalan companies listed in the IBEX 35 have either moved or plan to move their legal domiciles outside Catalunya seems to have concentrated minds wonderfully. As the Catalans say, La pela es la pela.

As for how this proposal for constitutional reform has come about, I suspect that it's the PSOE price for supporting Rajoy over direct rule. I'm not sure that Rajoy would have kicked this off on his own without a bit of a push. He isn't naturally proactive, quite the reverse. But given this has just come out today, we'll need to wait and see how the political analysts call it.

For anyone else struggling with da lingo, Google guessed that was Portuguese and reckons it means

"it by es la the"

You're welcome. Once told it was Catalan, apparently we get

"peel is peel"

Right.

[ou sont les biscuits]

SpeckledJim said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Yes, I think it's on the cards. As I said above, the Catalan issue isn't going to go away, and something has to be done that will keep most of the Catalans happy. You won't be able to please all of them, because some like those in the CUP and a chunk of those who support the JxSi coalition don't want anything but an independent republic. But I suspect that there are many who just want a bit more local power, and to keep a bit more of their money. And events over the past few days will have made many think twice. The fact that all bar one of the Catalan companies listed in the IBEX 35 have either moved or plan to move their legal domiciles outside Catalunya seems to have concentrated minds wonderfully. As the Catalans say, La pela es la pela.

As for how this proposal for constitutional reform has come about, I suspect that it's the PSOE price for supporting Rajoy over direct rule. I'm not sure that Rajoy would have kicked this off on his own without a bit of a push. He isn't naturally proactive, quite the reverse. But given this has just come out today, we'll need to wait and see how the political analysts call it.

For anyone else struggling with da lingo, Google guessed that was Portuguese and reckons it means

"it by es la the"

You're welcome. Once told it was Catalan, apparently we get

"peel is peel"

Right.

It's Spanish. Pela is slang for the old Peseta.

Basically it means money talks

[Wills2]

SpeckledJim said:

ou sont les biscuits said:

Madrid is still open to having talks, provided that the illegal declaration of independence is revoked. The position has been consistent - we can talk when you stop doing illegal things. The Madrid position always has been we live in a state in which the rule of law is supreme. You can't pick and choose which bits of it you choose to respect.

But that's analogous to saying "you can't ever have what you want".

Taking that line will inevitably spur a response.

It makes perfect sense if you want to live in a constitutional democracy, it's all about mandates and the Madrid government have no mandate to give the independent sovereignty that some of the Catalan population want.

Neither does it have a mandate from the people of Spain to give them a referendum, they need to request that from the people of Spain.

1.9 million or so people out of 46 million cannot decide the fate of an entire country in an illegal vote, that's not democracy.

BTW democracy doesn't mean you can have what you want.......

Edited by Wills2 on Friday 13th October 22:38

[Stickyfinger]

Wills2 said:

It makes perfect sense if you want to live in a constitutional democracy, it's all about mandates and the Madrid government have no mandate to give the independent sovereignty that some of the Catalan population want.

Neither does it have a mandate from the people of Spain to give them a referendum, they need to request that from the people of Spain.

1.9 million or so people out of 46 million cannot decide the fate of an entire country in an illegal vote, that's not democracy.

BTW democracy doesn't mean you can have what you want.......

Edited by Wills2 on Friday 13th October 22:38

Logic = Soviet style suppression

Deport all Catalans to Isla de Perejil next ? Will they all fit on ?

Edited by Stickyfinger on Friday 13th October 22:44

[discusdave]

[nikaiyo2]

Pesty said:

Thank you.

The SNP were NOT in Catalonia as international observers, 1 or 2 MPs were as genuine observers, a delegation of others have been over there st stirring.

[Halmyre]

nikaiyo2 said:

Pesty said:

Thank you.

The SNP were NOT in Catalonia as international observers, 1 or 2 MPs were as genuine observers, a delegation of others have been over there st stirring.

SNP MPs are just as much elected MPs as any other MPs. So what makes these other MPs genuine, and the SNP's not?

[Troubleatmill]

Halmyre said:

nikaiyo2 said:

Pesty said:

Thank you.

The SNP were NOT in Catalonia as international observers, 1 or 2 MPs were as genuine observers, a delegation of others have been over there st stirring.

SNP MPs are just as much elected MPs as any other MPs. So what makes these other MPs genuine, and the SNP's not?

Now - I haven't looked into this - but I would guess - that you would have to be a member of the United Nations.

Let's be honest MSP's have passed jack st legislation in the last year. They are closer to how often you bins get emptied than running a real country.

[Kermit power]

Halmyre said:

nikaiyo2 said:

Pesty said:

Thank you.

The SNP were NOT in Catalonia as international observers, 1 or 2 MPs were as genuine observers, a delegation of others have been over there st stirring.

SNP MPs are just as much elected MPs as any other MPs. So what makes these other MPs genuine, and the SNP's not?

Where did he say they weren't genuine MPs? Being genuine MPs doesn't necessarily mean they were there as official observers, does it?

[mickytruelove]

lets be honest, SNP are not real MPs. If you handed them a screw driver you would have to tell them which end is the handle, this is the caliber of person we are dealing with. Yes i live in Scotland.