And...It's Spain.. will it kick off ?
Discussion
psi310398 said:
Frank7 said:
Well I hope you are successfully resuscitated,
I have absolutely zero against you, okay?
Plus I apologise for calling you s**t for brains.
Thank you for the apology, Frank7. I have been called worse. But it is good of you to take steps to avoid a flame war. And a PistonHeads apology is a rare thing indeed! I have absolutely zero against you, okay?
Plus I apologise for calling you s**t for brains.
I've bought you an internet pint in appreciation
.Best
Peter
psi310398 said:
Thank you for the apology, Frank7. I have been called worse. But it is good of you to take steps to avoid a flame war. And a PistonHeads apology is a rare thing indeed!
I've bought you an internet pint in appreciation.
Best
Peter
Oh dear Peter, I only drink vodka, I doubt I could manage a pint, but give me lots of ice cubes, and a soupçon of Schweppes tonic, and I may manage half a pint, thanks.I've bought you an internet pint in appreciation
.Best
Peter
glazbagun said:
BBC saying the Spanish are sending their own police and transferring authority away from the Catalan police force.
I thought our lot were bad at pr and campaigning, but I can't see this ending with either the end of all Catalan autonomy or their independence.
This has the potential to get very messy.I thought our lot were bad at pr and campaigning, but I can't see this ending with either the end of all Catalan autonomy or their independence.
gofasterrosssco said:
I find it interesting that for all the talk of "democracy", what all modern separatist movements (e.g. nats in Scotland, Catalonia etc.) seem to offer really is just the promise of more money.
I've yet to hear of one (within a proper existing democracy) that offers the concept of separation fro the purposes of pure democracy, rather its "we'll be better off on our own".
Take the financial benefits away and the majority won't vote for it.
It's all about money, not democracy.
It is about democracy too, just it's not actually a change in democracy style. By giving people a more "local" choice which in theory should represent the local people more. It is part of the reason for Brexit, part of the SNP debate (although they are hypocrites as they are centralising power and services in Scotland) and would be the same in Catalunya.I've yet to hear of one (within a proper existing democracy) that offers the concept of separation fro the purposes of pure democracy, rather its "we'll be better off on our own".
Take the financial benefits away and the majority won't vote for it.
It's all about money, not democracy.
Historically the EU have always supported the right of peoples to self-determination yet when it comes to the Spanish issue they say it’s a ‘constitutional matter’ for Spain and they can’t get involved. Yet the European Commission are quite happy to get involved in the internal and constitutional matters of places like Poland and Hungary.
BlackLabel said:
Historically the EU have always supported the right of peoples to self-determination yet when it comes to the Spanish issue they say it’s a ‘constitutional matter’ for Spain and they can’t get involved. Yet the European Commission are quite happy to get involved in the internal and constitutional matters of places like Poland and Hungary.
EU comments/support for Spain over the rights and wish of the peoples of Gibraltar ? Rose tinted glasses, the EU is all about central control and always has been since it switched from a trade group to a Soviet style political structure. Watch it meddle and use fear to suppress the people of Catalonia.
BlackLabel said:
Historically the EU have always supported the right of peoples to self-determination yet when it comes to the Spanish issue they say it’s a ‘constitutional matter’ for Spain and they can’t get involved.
Yes, it's Spain's right to self-determination.BlackLabel said:
Let the European Commission are quite happy to get involved in the internal and constitutional matters of places like Poland and Hungary.
Well, when those "internal constitutional matters" include restricting the freedom of the press and judiciary, in direct contravention of everything that they signed up to by joining the EU...Edited by TooMany2cvs on Sunday 24th September 16:00
Given the criticism that the government gets most of the time, and deservedly, the way the UK dealt with the Scottish separatists was exemplary.
We do some things well. There are few - can't name one at the moment - countries who have dealt with such a well-funded terrorist unit such as the PIRA in such a way as to neutralise it. There were mistakes made, but eventually it was successful. It might be temporary of course, but even then it is better than most.
Credit where it is due.
We do some things well. There are few - can't name one at the moment - countries who have dealt with such a well-funded terrorist unit such as the PIRA in such a way as to neutralise it. There were mistakes made, but eventually it was successful. It might be temporary of course, but even then it is better than most.
Credit where it is due.
Suppression of what people tell you they are will never win. They are Spanish first and Catalans second in Madrid's eyes? 100% guaranteed to get the backs up.
Language used here about Catalan being a 'dialect' will make them want their identity honoured even stronger as it isn't a dialect of Spanish its their own cultural and historic language, and like many in a similar position, an attack on that hardens things - not chills things...
Someone said its always about the money but it ain't - its about respect, self determination and not being told what to do by people who you have issues with.
Suppression or dismissal of those that don't toe the bigger State party line does not work - it just makes them more determined to be respected, listened to and not be a marginalised minority within the big entity. They want to be the majority, calling the shots in their country. And if that country was initially taken by force and subjected to the purposefully negative policies of repression (Franco...) then that resentment will still be there centuries later.
All precedents are there and the pattern is clear. All big countries have acted the same with pesky 'regions & acquisitions' historically - from France/Brittany, Spain/Galicia/Euskadi/Catalunya, England/Wales/Scots, Greece/Macedonia, Laos/H
and of course the ex Jugoslavja (ohh and Russia's huge oppression in the Baltic states and so many other ex USSR states deemed to be be homogenised into Russian).
So the solution is to listen and be mates on different more mutually respectful terms. Forcing a partnership/identity/belonging that does not fit never works. How many times did the Catalans ask for a legal referendum only to be knocked back so many times by the Castellanos... So now this...
Language used here about Catalan being a 'dialect' will make them want their identity honoured even stronger as it isn't a dialect of Spanish its their own cultural and historic language, and like many in a similar position, an attack on that hardens things - not chills things...
Someone said its always about the money but it ain't - its about respect, self determination and not being told what to do by people who you have issues with.
Suppression or dismissal of those that don't toe the bigger State party line does not work - it just makes them more determined to be respected, listened to and not be a marginalised minority within the big entity. They want to be the majority, calling the shots in their country. And if that country was initially taken by force and subjected to the purposefully negative policies of repression (Franco...) then that resentment will still be there centuries later.
All precedents are there and the pattern is clear. All big countries have acted the same with pesky 'regions & acquisitions' historically - from France/Brittany, Spain/Galicia/Euskadi/Catalunya, England/Wales/Scots, Greece/Macedonia, Laos/H
and of course the ex Jugoslavja (ohh and Russia's huge oppression in the Baltic states and so many other ex USSR states deemed to be be homogenised into Russian).So the solution is to listen and be mates on different more mutually respectful terms. Forcing a partnership/identity/belonging that does not fit never works. How many times did the Catalans ask for a legal referendum only to be knocked back so many times by the Castellanos... So now this...
jsf said:
Spain in its current political construct in very young, large parts of mainland Europe are. It's far from certain that what we know as the country makeup of mainland Europe will stay the same, it certainly hasn't previously.
Gibraltar as a Uk province/territory is older that present day Spain is it not ?Stickyfinger said:
jsf said:
Spain in its current political construct in very young, large parts of mainland Europe are. It's far from certain that what we know as the country makeup of mainland Europe will stay the same, it certainly hasn't previously.
Gibraltar as a Uk province/territory is older that present day Spain is it not ?Spain might shout about Gib, but they go quiet if ever you mention Ceuta and Melllla as similar exclaves.
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