Essex EDL Rally today....

[Alpinestars]

del mar said:

muslims make up 4% of the UK population but appear to make up 14% of the prison population. So either they are committing more than their fair share of crimes or the system is racist and stacked against them.

You yourself said they appear to be over represented in cash for crash or words to that effect, so I will use you as my proof .... Can I call you as a witness or doesn't it work like that ?

This 4% appear to be right up there with cash for crash, and I do t recall any mass grooming issues from other ethnic groups. We have always had pedophiles but this is different approach.
Other than the 3% Welsh they seem over represented in terrorist incidents / charges.
HBVN quotes 12 or so honour killings a year, all victims appear to be of Pakistani decent.

Surely saying that you dont wants lots of non eu nationals in the country because they offer little and cost the economy a fortune, isn't racist it is common sense.

Whether they are over represented in the prison population or not, doesn't tell you;

a) anything about the rest of that population, who could all be 100% law abiding citizens, and in a way which the non imprisoned, non Muslim population might not be,
b) the qualitative nature of the crimes committed by those imprisoned. Are the Muslims in prison generally for "low level" crimes versus non "low level" crimes?, and
c) the incidence of crimes by the non imprisoned population, which either go undetected, or don't warrant prison sentences.

You've also pre selected crimes that "Muslims" are over represented in. As an example, are you not overly bothered about any other forms of paedophilia? Is only the MO important to you?

[///ajd]

So in summary Voyds9 thinks the EDL are hard working folk with jobs, but is actually some sort of liberal who thinks he is really a bit tory.

EDIT for typo!

Edited by ///ajd on Monday 25th September 22:12

[oilbethere]

///ajd said:

So in summary Voyds9 thinks the EDL are hard working folk with jobs, but is actually some sort of liberal who thinks they are a bit tory.

? Zzzzzz

[Colonial]

Keep in mind that the intellectual powerhouses at EDL once thought that the Brighton Pavilion was a mosque.

[AndStilliRise]

On a Sat night are you going to get more trouble from white drunk people or Muslims?

[TooMany2cvs]

Colonial said:

Keep in mind that the intellectual powerhouses at EDL once thought that the Brighton Pavilion was a mosque.

It happened again yesterday, with the Labour conference...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/labour-brigh...

[Digga]

AndStilliRise said:

On a Sat night are you going to get more trouble from white drunk people or Muslims?

There are some white people (utter bds) who deliberately stay sober in order to prowl the streets at the weekends, in search of hapless victims to 'fight'. I use fight in the most reserved term, because it is usually a planned and deliberate, one-sided annihilation.

Also, there are Muslims - not many, admittedly - who get pretty tanked up too. I guess one or two of them might misbehave.

The point is, your post is about generalisations, but does not reflect the full picture.

[Boydie88]

Breadvan72 said:

You have asserted that Muslims are unduly represented in criminality of all kinds. "All manner of criminal activity". It is for you to prove that. You did not say some. You said all kinds, unless "all manner" is supposed to mean something else. . Shoplifting? Securities fraud? Murder? Drink driving? Fly tipping? Coke dealing? Burglary? Need I continue?

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 25th September 20:37

Way to spin it in your apologist way. The fact is Islam is considerably over represented in prisons. Why does it matter what crime they are committing?

By others saying they doubt they are involved in alcohol related crime... then that just suggests they're even more over represented elsewhere.

They probably aren't over represented in "all kinds", but the simple fact is they are over represented in prison. Stop ignoring the point.

In Dec 2016, 4% of the population (aged 15+), yet 15.2% of the prison population. A number that has very nearly double (up from 7.7%) in 15 years. But yep, let's just ignore it and hope it stops.

Another way of looking at it.... Prison population has increased by 13,090 since 2002, 7,323 of that increase is from Muslims.

UK Prison Population Statistics PDF
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf

Edited by Boydie88 on Tuesday 26th September 09:25

[TooMany2cvs]

Boydie88 said:

Way to spin it in your apologist way. The fact is Islam is considerably over represented in prisons. Why does it matter what crime they are committing?

By others saying they doubt they are involved in alcohol related crime... then that just suggests they're even more over represented elsewhere.

They probably aren't over represented in "all kinds", but the simple fact is they are over represented in prison. Stop ignoring the point.

OK, let's look at that point.

Is it a fact? Yes.
Is it that simple? No.

What factors might be coming into play?
Prison conversions - for perceived preferential treatment.
Socio-economic disadvantages.
Simple discrimination in the judicial system.
Incarceration of those who would not otherwise even be in the country - drug smugglers, illegal migrants.

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned France - about 10% of the population, 70% of the prison population.

BTW, Catholics are similarly over-represented amongst the UK prison population. Does that make them inherently bad people, too?

[rscott]

Boydie88 said:

Breadvan72 said:

You have asserted that Muslims are unduly represented in criminality of all kinds. "All manner of criminal activity". It is for you to prove that. You did not say some. You said all kinds, unless "all manner" is supposed to mean something else. . Shoplifting? Securities fraud? Murder? Drink driving? Fly tipping? Coke dealing? Burglary? Need I continue?

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 25th September 20:37

Way to spin it in your apologist way. The fact is Islam is considerably over represented in prisons. Why does it matter what crime they are committing?

By others saying they doubt they are involved in alcohol related crime... then that just suggests they're even more over represented elsewhere.

They probably aren't over represented in "all kinds", but the simple fact is they are over represented in prison. Stop ignoring the point.

In Dec 2016, 4% of the population (aged 15+), yet 15.2% of the prison population. A number that has very nearly double (up from 7.7%) in 15 years. But yep, let's just ignore it and hope it stops.

Another way of looking at it.... Prison population has increased by 13,090 since 2002, 7,323 of that increase is from Muslims.

UK Prison Population Statistics PDF
researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04334/SN04334.pdf

Edited by Boydie88 on Tuesday 26th September 09:25

Presumably you have the same concerns about Buddhists then? They make up 0.5% of the population and 1.8% of the prison population.

[Boydie88]

rscott said:

Presumably you have the same concerns about Buddhists then? They make up 0.5% of the population and 1.8% of the prison population.

I did notice that, just found the below article suggesting many choose to convert upon conviction.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5977093/B...

IT suggests Buddhism is used to try and change an offenders ways, where as we know Muslim extremism is rife in prison.

TooMany2cvs said:

BTW, Catholics are similarly over-represented amongst the UK prison population. Does that make them inherently bad people, too?

Where have I inferred they are inherently bad? They are inherently good, no doubt about it, but when a religion makes up under 5% of a population yet is responsible for over 50% of the increase in prisoners, questions should be asked.

Looking at other tables that show little change in nationalities behind bars, I'd hypothesise it's the 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen etc that are responsible. Where is our system letting those new generations down? Why are they much more likely to be imprisoned? This needs addressing, it's not racist or 'islamophobic' to want to change the lives of those destined for a life that has you considerably more likely to end up in jail.

[rscott]

Boydie88 said:

rscott said:

Presumably you have the same concerns about Buddhists then? They make up 0.5% of the population and 1.8% of the prison population.

I did notice that, just found the below article suggesting many choose to convert upon conviction.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/5977093/B...

IT suggests Buddhism is used to try and change an offenders ways, where as we know Muslim extremism is rife in prison.

TooMany2cvs said:

BTW, Catholics are similarly over-represented amongst the UK prison population. Does that make them inherently bad people, too?

Where have I inferred they are inherently bad? They are inherently good, no doubt about it, but when a religion makes up under 5% of a population yet is responsible for over 50% of the increase in prisoners, questions should be asked.

Looking at other tables that show little change in nationalities behind bars, I'd hypothesise it's the 2nd, 3rd, 4th gen etc that are responsible. Where is our system letting those new generations down? Why are they much more likely to be imprisoned? This needs addressing, it's not racist or 'islamophobic' to want to change the lives of those destined for a life that has you considerably more likely to end up in jail.

Just like this one suggests prisoners convert to Islam in jail for perks too:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

You'd need to compare statistics for religion on admission to be able to make a meaningful judgement.

[TooMany2cvs]

rscott said:

You'd need to compare statistics for religion on admission to be able to make a meaningful judgement.

...adjusted for socio-economic background.

[Boydie88]

rscott said:

Just like this one suggests prisoners convert to Islam in jail for perks too:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

You'd need to compare statistics for religion on admission to be able to make a meaningful judgement.

Partially agreed, would also like to see reoffending rates by religion too. The lower Buddhist numbers suggests is far more liable to be manipulated by conversions, however you'd need more stats on how often prisoners convert to prove it.

[e30m3Mark]

rscott said:

Just like this one suggests prisoners convert to Islam in jail for perks too:-
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-ord...

You'd need to compare statistics for religion on admission to be able to make a meaningful judgement.

It's surprising just how many prisoners will declare themselves as Muslim, Catholic etc for the benefits of improved diet, choice of diet, association time etc that are on offer.

[anonymous-user]

A lot of muslim people come from poor backgrounds so will always make a higher population in jail.

'' fact that British Pakistanis and Bangladeshi earn two thirds less than white people. This is no longer a question of immigrants having poor English – the core of both communities are British born and bred. With economic blight for those in say Tower Hamlets or Bolton comes alienation. And with alienation comes crime.''

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/britai...

But the headliners will always look at the main bit and never delve into the actual root of the issues.

the cycle is something it is hard to actually break away from, it is similar situation to the Black people in american gaols.

''Using data from the Edinburgh Study of Youth Transitions and Crime, the Edinburgh university researchers found that poverty is a strong driver of violent offending amongst young people. However, systems of youth and adult justice, far from tackling violence and lifting young people out of poverty, serve instead to entrench poverty, thereby reproducing the very conditions in which violence can flourish.''

https://www.criminallawandjustice.co.uk/features/L...

''Hardly any of them are in for terror related activities – mainly gang violence or theft. ''

[del mar]

Breadvan72 said:

You have asserted that Muslims are unduly represented in criminality of all kinds. "All manner of criminal activity". It is for you to prove that. You did not say some. You said all kinds, unless "all manner" is supposed to mean something else. . Shoplifting? Securities fraud? Murder? Drink driving? Fly tipping? Coke dealing? Burglary? Need I continue?

Edited by Breadvan72 on Monday 25th September 20:37

Oohh, use of words..

There are all manner of people on Pistonheads.

There are some people on Pistonheads

All people are on Pistonheads

I have used "all manner of" to describe a variety of different crimes, not all crimes. I would be very surprised if they were over represented in all types of crime in the UK.

However..

I listed four crimes that prove/suit my point, if we work on the basis that there are say 100 crimes which can result in imprisonment (there maybe more or less but 100 is a nice round number).

Muslims are over represented in 4 out of the 100 possible UK crimes - 4% of all types of crime, not 4% of all crimes.

If they are not over represented in the other 96 crimes, and in some cases maybe even under represented, this would suggest that the volume and frequency of these 4 crimes must be staggering to result in the prison population being almost 4 times their UK population, in percentage terms.

Now maybe it is or they could be over represented in a selection of the 100 listed crimes.



They are the only BAME ethnic group significantly over represented in the Prison Population, Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists are there or thereabouts in regard to percentage of population vs percentage of prison population, so it cant be Racism in the System.

[del mar]

AndStilliRise said:

On a Sat night are you going to get more trouble from white drunk people or Muslims?

It depends on who you are.

If you are a young white girl in one of our Northern Towns.

or

a man out drinking with friends.

[anonymous-user]

I am too idle to check, but ISTR that African and Caribbean fall under the BAME umbrella and ISTR also that there is or used to be over representation of those groups in the CJS and in prison. At the same time, they are under represented at Russell Group universities and in high paid and/or high status employment. Some say that these things are not linked, others say that they might be.

[Colonial]

del mar said:

It depends on who you are.

If you are a young white girl in one of our Northern Towns.

or

a man out drinking with friends.

Or if you're a young white boy on a Sunday morning?