Labour Conference....total maddness or even possable ?
Discussion
desolate said:
I can't find the post were he refers to 'vast majority'.
I can see the one where he refers to 'vast sums' and I can see you referring to the 'vast majority' but I can't see crankedup's reference to same.
Sorry if I have missed it.
If it was only the minority’s that his comments applied to, they would be irrelevant to the point being discussed!I can see the one where he refers to 'vast sums' and I can see you referring to the 'vast majority' but I can't see crankedup's reference to same.
Sorry if I have missed it.
I’m in meetings all afternoon but maybe i’ll trawl the thread for what he said, when I’m at the airport waiting for my flight home!
sidicks said:
desolate said:
I can't find the post were he refers to 'vast majority'.
I can see the one where he refers to 'vast sums' and I can see you referring to the 'vast majority' but I can't see crankedup's reference to same.
Sorry if I have missed it.
If it was only the minority’s that his comments applied to, they would be irrelevant to the point being discussed!I can see the one where he refers to 'vast sums' and I can see you referring to the 'vast majority' but I can't see crankedup's reference to same.
Sorry if I have missed it.
I’m in meetings all afternoon but maybe i’ll trawl the thread for what he said, when I’m at the airport waiting for my flight home!
desolate said:
sidicks said:
If it was only the minority’s that his comments applied to, they would be irrelevant to the point being discussed!
I’m in meetings all afternoon but maybe i’ll trawl the thread for what he said, when I’m at the airport waiting for my flight home!
Don't bother.I’m in meetings all afternoon but maybe i’ll trawl the thread for what he said, when I’m at the airport waiting for my flight home!
Breadvan72 said:
Lord Heavens above! Now I can stave off eviction for another month and get little Dorothy her rickets medicine! It'll be cabbage for dinner, cabbage I tell you! That'll teach me to be an envyin' of me betters! Me, I know moi place, me.
[95% of NPE's vision of happy Britain, circa 2020]
Or just consume that julienne of potato on your acromioclavicular joint ?[95% of NPE's vision of happy Britain, circa 2020]
Stickyfinger said:
Breadvan72 said:
Lord Heavens above! Now I can stave off eviction for another month and get little Dorothy her rickets medicine! It'll be cabbage for dinner, cabbage I tell you! That'll teach me to be an envyin' of me betters! Me, I know moi place, me.
[95% of NPE's vision of happy Britain, circa 2020]
Or just consume that julienne of potato on your acromioclavicular joint ?[95% of NPE's vision of happy Britain, circa 2020]
desolate said:
Anyway whether it's Labour or Tory, Sidicks or a real human the emphasis on tax rates is a red herring.
We should all be focused on increasing earnings in the lower and lower middle sectors.
Society would see some real benefit then.
And do you think that under Corbyn, implementing a 'true Socialism' doctrine, the UK could achieve this and not make the mistakes of virtually all past socialist regimes, including the one playing out in Venezuela right now?We should all be focused on increasing earnings in the lower and lower middle sectors.
Society would see some real benefit then.
chris watton said:
And do you think that under Corbyn, implementing a 'true Socialism' doctrine, the UK could achieve this and not make the mistakes of virtually all past socialist regimes, including the one playing out in Venezuela right now?
No.However, I do think that the Tories are heading for a loss if they don't get their act together. They are a shambles.
And a Tory loss probably means a labour win.
desolate said:
chris watton said:
And do you think that under Corbyn, implementing a 'true Socialism' doctrine, the UK could achieve this and not make the mistakes of virtually all past socialist regimes, including the one playing out in Venezuela right now?
No.However, I do think that the Tories are heading for a loss if they don't get their act together. They are a shambles.
And a Tory loss probably means a labour win.
Edited by chris watton on Tuesday 3rd October 13:57
desolate said:
Anyway whether it's Labour or Tory, Sidicks or a real human the emphasis on tax rates is a red herring.
We should all be focused on increasing earnings in the lower and lower middle sectors.
Society would see some real benefit then.
About 1 billion lower and lower-middle sectors have been lifted out of poverty in the past 20 years. There has been a revolution in earnings. Just not in Britain. All the uplift has been in Asia, Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe.We should all be focused on increasing earnings in the lower and lower middle sectors.
Society would see some real benefit then.
Yipper said:
desolate said:
Anyway whether it's Labour or Tory, Sidicks or a real human the emphasis on tax rates is a red herring.
We should all be focused on increasing earnings in the lower and lower middle sectors.
Society would see some real benefit then.
About 1 billion lower and lower-middle sectors have been lifted out of poverty in the past 20 years. There has been a revolution in earnings. Just not in Britain. All the uplift has been in Asia, Africa, Latin America and Eastern Europe.We should all be focused on increasing earnings in the lower and lower middle sectors.
Society would see some real benefit then.
Breadvan72 said:
Even by the usual loony PH standards, this level of minute discussion of a poll and the extrapolation from it of almost existential assumptions about many voters seems pretty, er... (I will leave people to insert their own adjectives).
Does the religionisation of politics mean that people need to be able to demonise their opponents still further? All lefties are jealous of everyone else! All righties want to eat the poor!
Yes, I regret getting sucked into pointless bickering with the likes of sidicks (although I see that, inevitably, he continues to bark through his front teeth with such mania that even his exacting standards have failed and he attributed a quote of yours to me).Does the religionisation of politics mean that people need to be able to demonise their opponents still further? All lefties are jealous of everyone else! All righties want to eat the poor!
It was a simple observation: I don't believe there is a vast mass of people wanting to deprive the "rich" of their things. Some, but not that many.
From a personal perspective I pay higher rate income tax, CGT and corporation tax. Could I pay more without affecting my lifestyle? Yes. Do I want to? The caveat will always be 'what is the objective?' Government can do some things well. I don't support a general ramping up of a simple take from the rich and give to the poor, but real (and perceived) inequality can be corrosive. I do support striving to have less poor, less imbalance regionally, less homeless and a greater opportunity for those from disadvantaged backgrounds (yes I know it sounds as though I nicked that from one of Mr Morley's contestants c. 1973). If policies that achieve this are introduced and it costs me more money I don't have a problem.
We seem to lack politicians with vision. Corbyn brings nothing new (apart from surprise that the opposition are making him seem credible), May is weak (and weird to many) and has the needless poison chalice of Brexit to deal with. Woe is us, except the sun is shining the birds are singing, there's a bloke sleeping in the underpass and I need to go and tell him what he's been doing wrong. Maybe I'll bump into sid doing his rounds.
On a sort of related point, I was in Epernay a couple of weeks ago quaffing Champagne with some wealthy people (I thought it would be grim, but it turned out OK). Inevitably some talk of politics, Brexit etc. during the quaffing and nosebagging. From this set (8) of people only one didn't think we had some concerning issues in the UK regarding inclusiveness and the stagnation of opportunity. None had been born with quaffing rights, they were from a variety of backgrounds and generally felt the opportunities they had weren't so available today. They felt they had to invest more in their kids to get them to where they had been themselves. Fine if you have the money to invest, not fine if you don't. The one exception was the chap who had moved to Jersey because he didn't like paying tax (he didn't like Jersey either). The problems he had with immigrants/refugees/single mothers/feckless poor were astonishing!
citizensm1th said:
i think you mean relative poverty, i very much doubt any lower and lower middle sector citizens in the uk would enjoy dropping to the standards of their peers in asia or africa or latin america.
Agreed with the above. And that's the biggest case of using a false equivalence to prove a point. Has the standard of living of people in up to middle class increased in the developed world? (no it hasn't)
Roman Rhodes said:
On a sort of related point, I was in Epernay a couple of weeks ago quaffing Champagne with some wealthy people (I thought it would be grim, but it turned out OK). Inevitably some talk of politics, Brexit etc. during the quaffing and nosebagging. From this set (8) of people only one didn't think we had some concerning issues in the UK regarding inclusiveness and the stagnation of opportunity. None had been born with quaffing rights, they were from a variety of backgrounds and generally felt the opportunities they had weren't so available today. They felt they had to invest more in their kids to get them to where they had been themselves. Fine if you have the money to invest, not fine if you don't. The one exception was the chap who had moved to Jersey because he didn't like paying tax (he didn't like Jersey either). The problems he had with immigrants/refugees/single mothers/feckless poor were astonishing!
Yep, Jersey is a shocking for underclass and immigrant scummery. It makes Stockton on Tees look like Belgravia. The poor bloke, how does he cope?I wasn't born to quaffing rights, but now quaff like an Olympic level quaffer in training for International Quaffing Week, and I share the concern of your quaff buddies that it seems less easy for those born without the quaff to gain quaffing licences these days.
Breadvan72 said:
Roman Rhodes said:
On a sort of related point, I was in Epernay a couple of weeks ago quaffing Champagne with some wealthy people (I thought it would be grim, but it turned out OK). Inevitably some talk of politics, Brexit etc. during the quaffing and nosebagging. From this set (8) of people only one didn't think we had some concerning issues in the UK regarding inclusiveness and the stagnation of opportunity. None had been born with quaffing rights, they were from a variety of backgrounds and generally felt the opportunities they had weren't so available today. They felt they had to invest more in their kids to get them to where they had been themselves. Fine if you have the money to invest, not fine if you don't. The one exception was the chap who had moved to Jersey because he didn't like paying tax (he didn't like Jersey either). The problems he had with immigrants/refugees/single mothers/feckless poor were astonishing!
Yep, Jersey is a shocking for underclass and immigrant scummery. It makes Stockton on Tees look like Belgravia. The poor bloke, how does he cope?I wasn't born to quaffing rights, but now quaff like an Olympic level quaffer in training for International Quaffing Week, and I share the concern of your quaff buddies that it seems less easy for those born without the quaff to gain quaffing licences these days.
Where's the evidence?
If we're going to discuss how things 'seem' - let's look how these people who have built quaffing rights may have got them:
selling goods/services to punters or businesses is basically it. Whether it be importing widgets, making and selling widgets, or cleaning windows or whatever - has any of that got any harder for youg 20-somethings? I don't think so.
If anything, barriers to entry to many things have disappeared with technology. How many of us back in the day could have made films without lots of ££££?
Now short films can be shot on very cheap video cameras and edited on a £400 Mac. 15 years ago you needed a film camera, film stock, film processing, telecine, offline editing, online editing etc etc (ask me how I know).
Same with software/computing. Youngsters with zero capital can very cheaply acquire the means to write apps. That was not really that easy 20 years ago.
Recruitment - a licence for many to print money with zero barrier to entry.
So, while some parts of getting ahead have got more difficult in some regions (housing affordability or low skill factory jobs), many other opportunities abound that did not exist 'in our day'.
Edited by johnfm on Tuesday 3rd October 19:29
I agree in part, John, however housing is a big issue for the new generation. I can't see how my children will buy houses unless I help them out. I also think competition for very good universities and jobs etc is more intense. In my day I got a very good Uni results which secured me a job at one of the big name consultancies. That has always carried me throughout my career. I'm not sure id cut it if I started today 
Our children are only very young but we are already planning their education (balanced) and choosing the 'right' schools which we pay for. It may sound selfish but i pay a lot of tax and I don't really consider the needs of anyone else in the wider sense. That's the states job. My family is where it ends, pretty much.
Our children are only very young but we are already planning their education (balanced) and choosing the 'right' schools which we pay for. It may sound selfish but i pay a lot of tax and I don't really consider the needs of anyone else in the wider sense. That's the states job. My family is where it ends, pretty much.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff