Dyson Launches Electric Car
Discussion
This is a sensible move if they are not going to be able to make a competitive car.
Theres a huge list of reasons why this could be the case, start up cost, complexity, just being a few years late/slow etc.
Shame they couldnt re-engineer the project, make it simpler and start with something more realistic.
Theres a huge list of reasons why this could be the case, start up cost, complexity, just being a few years late/slow etc.
Shame they couldnt re-engineer the project, make it simpler and start with something more realistic.
What’s happening with project Titan which was Apple’s electric car?
Dyson in reality hasn’t got the resources to compete IMO so it’s probably the correct move, the big winners in EV will be the already established car makers, I don’t even think Tesla are that bothered about the cars isn’t their big investment in battery tech? That’s where the money will be.
Dyson in reality hasn’t got the resources to compete IMO so it’s probably the correct move, the big winners in EV will be the already established car makers, I don’t even think Tesla are that bothered about the cars isn’t their big investment in battery tech? That’s where the money will be.
Really not sure it's a problem with development resources - Dyson had more money allocated than Lotus have spent in the last thirty years, even including the recent massive commitment by Geely.
If Tesla is any indication, the blocker with EVs at the moment is that batteries just aren't getting cheaper, and nor are the other complex components. Sure you can make an EV that competes with other EVs, but that's a dead end at the moment, with Tesla dominating, China coming in hard and the other mainstream manufacturers trying to mop up the dregs.
To be in with a chance, you need to produce an EV that competes with ICE cars at mainstream (not luxury) price points, and the technology just isn't there to still make a meaningful profit.
When Dyson started the project, the common wisdom was that battery technology would plummet in price and rocket in availability. It hasn't, and alternative battery technologies (that have been promised for decades now) are still nowhere near manufacture. Anyone committing to a project based on those projections would currently be looking at price points, market pressures and manufacturing issues and really scratching their head.
If Tesla is any indication, the blocker with EVs at the moment is that batteries just aren't getting cheaper, and nor are the other complex components. Sure you can make an EV that competes with other EVs, but that's a dead end at the moment, with Tesla dominating, China coming in hard and the other mainstream manufacturers trying to mop up the dregs.
To be in with a chance, you need to produce an EV that competes with ICE cars at mainstream (not luxury) price points, and the technology just isn't there to still make a meaningful profit.
When Dyson started the project, the common wisdom was that battery technology would plummet in price and rocket in availability. It hasn't, and alternative battery technologies (that have been promised for decades now) are still nowhere near manufacture. Anyone committing to a project based on those projections would currently be looking at price points, market pressures and manufacturing issues and really scratching their head.
Tuna said:
Really not sure it's a problem with development resources - Dyson had more money allocated than Lotus have spent in the last thirty years, even including the recent massive commitment by Geely.
If Tesla is any indication, the blocker with EVs at the moment is that batteries just aren't getting cheaper, and nor are the other complex components. Sure you can make an EV that competes with other EVs, but that's a dead end at the moment, with Tesla dominating, China coming in hard and the other mainstream manufacturers trying to mop up the dregs.
To be in with a chance, you need to produce an EV that competes with ICE cars at mainstream (not luxury) price points, and the technology just isn't there to still make a meaningful profit.
When Dyson started the project, the common wisdom was that battery technology would plummet in price and rocket in availability. It hasn't, and alternative battery technologies (that have been promised for decades now) are still nowhere near manufacture. Anyone committing to a project based on those projections would currently be looking at price points, market pressures and manufacturing issues and really scratching their head.
Talking of Geely, I really think Volvo will be one of the succesful car brands in the EV sector, they seem to be taking a sensible approach, pushing the pure EV brand as polestar (which look amazing) but alongside that gradually changing the core Volvo line up to ‘proper’ hybrids, I want to move to an electric car next but I’m really interested in their line of hybrids as I think its a good first stepIf Tesla is any indication, the blocker with EVs at the moment is that batteries just aren't getting cheaper, and nor are the other complex components. Sure you can make an EV that competes with other EVs, but that's a dead end at the moment, with Tesla dominating, China coming in hard and the other mainstream manufacturers trying to mop up the dregs.
To be in with a chance, you need to produce an EV that competes with ICE cars at mainstream (not luxury) price points, and the technology just isn't there to still make a meaningful profit.
When Dyson started the project, the common wisdom was that battery technology would plummet in price and rocket in availability. It hasn't, and alternative battery technologies (that have been promised for decades now) are still nowhere near manufacture. Anyone committing to a project based on those projections would currently be looking at price points, market pressures and manufacturing issues and really scratching their head.
chrispmartha said:
Talking of Geely, I really think Volvo will be one of the succesful car brands in the EV sector, they seem to be taking a sensible approach, pushing the pure EV brand as polestar (which look amazing) but alongside that gradually changing the core Volvo line up to ‘proper’ hybrids, I want to move to an electric car next but I’m really interested in their line of hybrids as I think its a good first step
I think hybrids are a good bet at the moment. For all that alternative battery technology has not come to the rescue yet, there is a huge amount of effort being put into it, and it's likely to deliver disruptive changes at some point. Anyone betting on pure EV platforms based on current battery technology is at huge risk.Tuna said:
chrispmartha said:
Talking of Geely, I really think Volvo will be one of the succesful car brands in the EV sector, they seem to be taking a sensible approach, pushing the pure EV brand as polestar (which look amazing) but alongside that gradually changing the core Volvo line up to ‘proper’ hybrids, I want to move to an electric car next but I’m really interested in their line of hybrids as I think its a good first step
I think hybrids are a good bet at the moment. For all that alternative battery technology has not come to the rescue yet, there is a huge amount of effort being put into it, and it's likely to deliver disruptive changes at some point. Anyone betting on pure EV platforms based on current battery technology is at huge risk.Given limited supply of batteries we are better putting 10-20kwh into ICE cars as plug in hybrids than building pure evs, but that leaves us in a situation of low production of cells and doesnt push the price down anywhere near as fast as full evs will.
Dyson just couldnt find a way to compete with what everyone else was doing, it would have been a surprise if they could given the number of EV startups around
Dyson just couldnt find a way to compete with what everyone else was doing, it would have been a surprise if they could given the number of EV startups around
RobDickinson said:
Dyson just couldnt find a way to compete with what everyone else was doing, it would have been a surprise if they could given the number of EV startups around
That makes no sense. How many of these EV startups have nearly three billion dollars of debt free investment available to them? For comparison, the Model S appears to have cost somewhere around the one billion dollar mark to develop.There is a difference between being able to compete and being able to produce a desired product profitably. What everyone else is doing is largely loosing money on products that are failing to get out of their niches - I'm sure Dyson could compete with that.
In the cold light of day, it's still questionable whether the Model 3 is commercially viable - that's the environment that EV startups are working in, and (absent some miracle breakthrough in battery technology) it has to be a factor in whether 'competing' projects go forward. It could be that Dyson was sold a pup by the battery company he bought into, but calls like that happen when you're trying to innovate. Remember the reason for canning the project was 'commercial viability', not 'competitive landscape'.
Tuna said:
...It could be that Dyson was sold a pup by the battery company he bought into, but calls like that happen when you're trying to innovate. Remember the reason for canning the project was 'commercial viability', not 'competitive landscape'.
I'm not sure the difference, if there is one, is material Your point on whether Tesla models will ever be profitable is likely very pertinent. He's keeping going with the battery stuff I believe, so presumably thinks there's mileage in that. Though I guess battery tech is universally useful.
Fittster said:
So once he found out that a project couldn't be viable he pulled the plug on it.
Wonder if he still wants Brexit?
Define "viable" when it comes to political philosophy. You plum. Wonder if he still wants Brexit?
Murph7355 said:
I'm not sure the difference, if there is one, is material
It's just my usual frustration with the ambulance chasers on here who see a project like this and declare "See, I told you they couldn't do it!". 
I'm pretty confident that the talent at Dyson could have put together something innovative and 'competitive' in the EV space.
However, that's not the same as being commercially viable - and this highlights that most of the EV industry is teetering on the edge of viability/collapse. Money is going into it more for political/emotive reasons than strong commercial value.
Tuna said:
Murph7355 said:
I'm not sure the difference, if there is one, is material
It's just my usual frustration with the ambulance chasers on here who see a project like this and declare "See, I told you they couldn't do it!". I'm pretty confident that the talent at Dyson could have put together something innovative and 'competitive' in the EV space.
However, that's not the same as being commercially viable - and this highlights that most of the EV industry is teetering on the edge of viability/collapse. Money is going into it more for political/emotive reasons than strong commercial value.
I doubt there's much difference between "competitive" and "commercially viable" in this context. One surely begats the other?
“Innovative" is different, but any fool can be innovative and lose s
t loads of money Personally I admire them for fessing up that they couldn't make this work. Nothing wrong in that. It would be interesting to know the details of why, but I suspect that will remain secret.
There is no shame, IMO, in having a go at something and it not working out. It's unfortunate for the 500 people working there, but better it's stopped now than when 1000s of people are employed/think they will be.
Bigger, more experienced names in the car industry have failed to make product work...
Murph7355 said:
<snip>
I doubt there's much difference between "competitive" and "commercially viable" in this context. One surely begats the other?
I'd say tuna is distinguishing thus:I doubt there's much difference between "competitive" and "commercially viable" in this context. One surely begats the other?
Just because you make the "best" or even comparable items of a particular type something doesn't mean it'll sell. There has to be a market for that type. If there are alternative types that are "better" then they'll sell and yours won't.
They may make the "best" electric (type) car (something) but if "better" alternative car types e.g. ICE exist then that's what will sell.
I've put quotes around best and better as there are many criteria which may go into those definitions. If your type doesn't satisfy enough then it won't be commercially viable.
jet_noise said:
I'd say tuna is distinguishing thus:
Just because you make the "best" or even comparable items of a particular type something doesn't mean it'll sell. There has to be a market for that type. If there are alternative types that are "better" then they'll sell and yours won't.
They may make the "best" electric (type) car (something) but if "better" alternative car types e.g. ICE exist then that's what will sell.
I've put quotes around best and better as there are many criteria which may go into those definitions. If your type doesn't satisfy enough then it won't be commercially viable.
Exactly. I'm fairly confident Dyson could have produced a technically excellent and innovative product - something that could compete with the EVs currently out there.Just because you make the "best" or even comparable items of a particular type something doesn't mean it'll sell. There has to be a market for that type. If there are alternative types that are "better" then they'll sell and yours won't.
They may make the "best" electric (type) car (something) but if "better" alternative car types e.g. ICE exist then that's what will sell.
I've put quotes around best and better as there are many criteria which may go into those definitions. If your type doesn't satisfy enough then it won't be commercially viable.
That's not the same as producing something that will sell profitably in large enough numbers. I'm not sure there is a single EV manufacturer who can claim to have done that yet?
jtremlett said:
I really don't get why some on here always seem to glory in any sort of business failure. This is a British company, trying to beat the world on technical innovation and employing a lot of British people paying UK taxes. But more than that, the more such companies exist, the more it encourages students to follow that kind of path and the whole thing potentially snowballs into establishing the UK as centre of excellence for such technology and that can only be a good thing for the UK as a whole, surely?
It's actually a Singaporean company since the start of the year that trades in the UK. It's head office is in Singapore, its manufacturing is in Asia, the jobs affected by this cancellation are all in Singapore. Not much to cheer for a guy who championed Brexit and the strength of the UK as he moved his company and his wealth overseas.Greggsybabe said:
It's actually a Singaporean company since the start of the year that trades in the UK. It's head office is in Singapore, its manufacturing is in Asia, the jobs affected by this cancellation are all in Singapore. Not much to cheer for a guy who championed Brexit and the strength of the UK as he moved his company and his wealth overseas.
Not actually true - I believe the car development work was all being done in the UK, the jobs lost are here, and the investment was here.ElectricSoup said:
No no no no. That's not how it works. Dyson made a decision to build an electric car in 2016 and they must now deliver. I don't care whether or not it's "commercially viable" - a decision was made.
(Nicked from twitter, credit: @Michael_Dunn4)
Do us all a favour and don't derail yet another thread with the B-word please.(Nicked from twitter, credit: @Michael_Dunn4)
Tuna said:
ElectricSoup said:
No no no no. That's not how it works. Dyson made a decision to build an electric car in 2016 and they must now deliver. I don't care whether or not it's "commercially viable" - a decision was made.
(Nicked from twitter, credit: @Michael_Dunn4)
Do us all a favour and don't derail yet another thread with the B-word please.(Nicked from twitter, credit: @Michael_Dunn4)
Be interested to hear what threads I've derailed though, should be fun.
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