Anti-Semitism and the British Left.
Discussion
Solocle said:
Countdown said:
As Luther has asked what is "anti-semitic" about what he has said?
He compared Zionists to Nazis - which is anti-Semitic under the international definition.https://antisemitism.uk/definition/
Was there anything more explicit? As I wouldn't automatically equate Israeli Govt Policy with Zionism. Anti-Zionism isn't Anti-semitism (although I completely accept that people may disguise one as the other)
Countdown said:
I couldn't see anywhere in that definition where comparing Zionism to Nazism fell within the definition. The only bit which I think came close was in relation to comparing Israeli policy to nazism
Was there anything more explicit? As I wouldn't automatically equate Israeli Govt Policy with Zionism. Anti-Zionism isn't Anti-semitism (although I completely accept that people may disguise one as the other)
I think that anti-Zionism is more insidious than comparing Israeli government policy to nazism. I would guess that you are misunderstanding Zionism - it’s not the extreme right wing position the left would suggest, but rather merely support for Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state. Many Zionists are fiercely critical of Israel’s policies- none more so than Israelis. I would argue that if comparing Israeli govt’ to Nazis is anti Semitic, arguing that all supporters of Israel’s existence are Nazis is tenfold.Was there anything more explicit? As I wouldn't automatically equate Israeli Govt Policy with Zionism. Anti-Zionism isn't Anti-semitism (although I completely accept that people may disguise one as the other)
Ayahuasca said:
It is certainly a very strange thing. I don't mind people being pro/anti Israel, but being anti jew is just daft, and self-defeating.
Messy subject. Anti-Zionism in theory should be wholly separate from Antisemitism but both sides have muddied the water somewhat. The Antisemites have tried to hide behind the Anti-Zionism argument and the Zionists have forced Anti-Zionism to be seen as the same as Antisemitism in the Western media so as to stifle the debate.
There is a famous quote from an Israeli back in the 70s which goes along the lines of: ' The smarted move by Israel was to convince the West that anti Zionism and Antisemitism were the same thing.'
In theory someone can be against the Zionist movement and not to have the slightest issue with Judaism. Likewise, someone can be Antisemitic but have no issue with the concept of Zionism.
Having grown up in NW London I don't know anyone who is antisemitic but I know plenty of people, semites and non semites who have the view that the State of Israel can be a massive dick at times.
Solocle said:
I think that anti-Zionism is more insidious than comparing Israeli government policy to nazism. I would guess that you are misunderstanding Zionism - it’s not the extreme right wing position the left would suggest, but rather merely support for Israel’s right to exist as a Jewish state.
I think people get that. A state should not have a religion. Islamic Republic of Iran, Jewish state of Israel, it's complete nonsense. The state should exist to serve all its citizens. The fact that the majority may share a common religion is irrelevant. TwigtheWonderkid said:
I think people get that. A state should not have a religion. Islamic Republic of Iran, Jewish state of Israel, it's complete nonsense. The state should exist to serve all its citizens. The fact that the majority may share a common religion is irrelevant.
We have the Church of England. The problem is when a state becomes exclusively for that religion. Israel is not - it’s not even officially a Jewish state. Arabs serve on the Supreme Court and in the Knesset.In a historical context antisemitism and antizionism were distinct, but I believe that antizionism has come to be almost entirely motivated by antisemitism. What’s worse is the left don’t recognise that they are motivated by prejudice and hold themselves to be “anti fascist”
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never quite got the anti-Jew thing.
Maybe it's a bit of ignorance on my part but it's simply never factored into my thinking around what I think of anyone I know or have heard of.
I see a post on facebook earlier, normal mob slagging them off, I thought I wonder if these brain dead morons would ever have the nous to invent something like facebook which they obviously love using.Maybe it's a bit of ignorance on my part but it's simply never factored into my thinking around what I think of anyone I know or have heard of.
Solocle said:
We have the Church of England. The problem is when a state becomes exclusively for that religion. Israel is not - it’s not even officially a Jewish state. Arabs serve on the Supreme Court and in the Knesset.
In a historical context antisemitism and antizionism were distinct, but I believe that antizionism has come to be almost entirely motivated by antisemitism. What’s worse is the left don’t recognise that they are motivated by prejudice and hold themselves to be “anti fascist”
Israel has various laws which discriminate against non-Jews, and specifically against Palestinians. For example it's far easier for a Jewish person who has never lived in Israel to move there than it is for a Palestinian whose family has lived there for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. So I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that it's not a "Jewish" State.In a historical context antisemitism and antizionism were distinct, but I believe that antizionism has come to be almost entirely motivated by antisemitism. What’s worse is the left don’t recognise that they are motivated by prejudice and hold themselves to be “anti fascist”
FWIW a lot of people equate Zionism with the Settler movement. And it's an easy cop-out for the Jewish Far-right to suggest that any opposition to what they're doing is anti-semtitism.
Raygun said:
I see a post on facebook earlier, normal mob slagging them off, I thought I wonder if these brain dead morons would ever have the nous to invent something like facebook which they obviously love using.
I think it's more why people give a fk.Leroy902s post literally has me scratching my head wondering how that sort of thing becomes a thought process to post that sort of thing if that makes sense.
Countdown said:
Israel has various laws which discriminate against non-Jews, and specifically against Palestinians. For example it's far easier for a Jewish person who has never lived in Israel to move there than it is for a Palestinian whose family has lived there for hundreds, if not thousands, of years. So I think it's a bit disingenuous to say that it's not a "Jewish" State.
FWIW a lot of people equate Zionism with the Settler movement. And it's an easy cop-out for the Jewish Far-right to suggest that any opposition to what they're doing is anti-semtitism.
The UN definition of Palestinian refugee included those who had moved to the area as little as 2 years prior. There was a lot of Arab immigration into Mandatory Palestine under the British. Then there was the whole situation with the Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Non of them are refugees any more - contrast that to those that are still labelled "refugee" as political pawns against Israel. I don't have to go into the rights and wrongs of 1948. The fact is that any call for the end of Israel will result in the ethnic cleansing or worse of the 6 million Jews who live there. Abbas is clear that he won't tolerate a single Jew in his future fantasy.FWIW a lot of people equate Zionism with the Settler movement. And it's an easy cop-out for the Jewish Far-right to suggest that any opposition to what they're doing is anti-semtitism.
Compare the amount of attention on Israel to India/Pakistan. Tell me that the vast body of criticism of Israel isn't motivated by deep rooted prejudice.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: I've never quite got the anti-Jew thing.
Maybe it's a bit of ignorance on my part but it's simply never factored into my thinking around what I think of anyone I know or have heard of.
Same here. I'm atheist so religion of any sorts does not figure in my life. I can't hate someone because of their religion, I simply take individuals at face value, and their religion doesn't even cross my mind.Maybe it's a bit of ignorance on my part but it's simply never factored into my thinking around what I think of anyone I know or have heard of.
98elise said:
Same here. I'm atheist so religion of any sorts does not figure in my life. I can't hate someone because of their religion, I simply take individuals at face value, and their religion doesn't even cross my mind.
Indeed. I'm Jewish, but I really don't give two fs what your religion is. I find that there are ss of all colours and creeds.Ridgemont said:
No one is saying he should be arrested. They are saying he is Anti Semitic. And he can't respond with libel shutting that accusation down.
He can claim whatever he wants but he will be accurately described as anti Semite if he believes that the historical existence of the holocaust is open to debate. It really isn't and the only people who wish for this to be an open question (and are usually mustard keen on 'free speech' in this context) are motivated not by the veracity of historiography but with an intent to question the event's existence and therefore from there all sorts of repercussions (the establishment of Israel etc).
Typically non fascist exponents are, in the bendy twisty logical mind trap of the hard left, working backwards from vehement opposition to Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians, and, confronted by the aura that the holocaust casts on the foundation period of the Jewish homelands post '45, find themselves espousing a fundamentally anti Semitic position of questioning the holocaust event. Their means of achieving that is usually 'free speech yay!'.
I as about to write pretty much this - although not half as eloquently!He can claim whatever he wants but he will be accurately described as anti Semite if he believes that the historical existence of the holocaust is open to debate. It really isn't and the only people who wish for this to be an open question (and are usually mustard keen on 'free speech' in this context) are motivated not by the veracity of historiography but with an intent to question the event's existence and therefore from there all sorts of repercussions (the establishment of Israel etc).
Typically non fascist exponents are, in the bendy twisty logical mind trap of the hard left, working backwards from vehement opposition to Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians, and, confronted by the aura that the holocaust casts on the foundation period of the Jewish homelands post '45, find themselves espousing a fundamentally anti Semitic position of questioning the holocaust event. Their means of achieving that is usually 'free speech yay!'.
DonkeyApple said:
Messy subject. Anti-Zionism in theory should be wholly separate from Antisemitism but both sides have muddied the water somewhat.
The Antisemites have tried to hide behind the Anti-Zionism argument and the Zionists have forced Anti-Zionism to be seen as the same as Antisemitism in the Western media so as to stifle the debate.
That’s a good point.The Antisemites have tried to hide behind the Anti-Zionism argument and the Zionists have forced Anti-Zionism to be seen as the same as Antisemitism in the Western media so as to stifle the debate.
BlackLabel said:
Here they go again. Why does the British Left have such an antisemitism problem?
The history is long and deep. Too long to go into too much here, there is a 275 page PHD dissertation on the subject somewhere.As it is complex I might get the breakdown wrong, hopefully I don't upset anyone.
a) Post WW2 we had a Labour government. many of the decisions Labour made at the time (specifically Ernest Bevin) was seen at the time as anti-Semitic, to the point where Bevin himself was at risk of assassination by Jews. Ironically, the british Communist party at the time classed the Jews as the ones who were encountering imperialist struggle, this time against the Arab backed British
b) Still in the close-WW2 period, the tables then turned against the Jews from the communists when they were accused in Russia of trying to assassinate the then Communist states senior leaders, the british communist party then, for obvious reasons, rallied against the Jews
As Israel gravitated towards the USA and by extension against the USSR (as it was) Israel was painted as a right-wing imperialist state, in conflict with the communists plans and that is how it has stayed since the mid-1950's.
Once Israel was welded permanently to imperialism it was also placed permanently and directly in opposition to the hard-left and the communists. As Lenin decreed that imperialism is a tool of capitalism and an enemy of communism, imperialism must be directly opposed (from memory).
See Imperialism: a study 1902 by John Hobson and Imperialism: the highest stage of capitalism (1916) by Vladimir Lenin.
Which moves us nicely into......
c) Corbyn has promoted recently, into his inner circle, one of the most senior (former) leaders in the british communist party. He is now in a very strategic position of power in Corbyn's team. The working class struggle of the Palestinian's against the Israeli imperialists in their fight for liberalisation of palestine fits perfectly into the communist (Stalinist) and Marxist socialist agenda.
Combined additionally with the influx of those with interests to forward the general Arab agenda and its a toxic mix for anyone affiliated with Israel or of Jewish tendencies in the current setup of the Labour party. Additionally, Corbyn and his followers supportive affiliations with Hezbollah and the like is not because he supports terrorism directly, it is because they support anti-imperialistic theory.
Edited by Carl_Manchester on Wednesday 27th September 23:30
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