Anti-Semitism and the British Left.
Discussion
wsurfa said:
You agree that there is no law preventing photography of the IDF, which is good, as rushing to believe things because it fits your world view is something that seems all to common on all sides of political debate currently.
Was the Nation State Law was passed, or do I need to stop reading France24?http://www.france24.com/en/20180719-israel-passes-...
grumbledoak said:
wsurfa said:
You agree that there is no law preventing photography of the IDF, which is good, as rushing to believe things because it fits your world view is something that seems all to common on all sides of political debate currently.
Was the Nation State Law was passed, or do I need to stop reading France24?http://www.france24.com/en/20180719-israel-passes-...
Basic Law: Israel as the Nation State of the Jewish People
1 — Basic principles
A. The land of Israel is the historical homeland of the Jewish people, in which the State of Israel was established.
B. The State of Israel is the national home of the Jewish people, in which it fulfills its natural, cultural, religious and historical right to self-determination.
C. The right to exercise national self-determination in the State of Israel is unique to the Jewish people.
2 — The symbols of the state
A. The name of the state is “Israel.”
B. The state flag is white with two blue stripes near the edges and a blue Star of David in the center.
C. The state emblem is a seven-branched menorah with olive leaves on both sides and the word “Israel” beneath it.
D. The state anthem is “Hatikvah.”
E. Details regarding state symbols will be determined by the law.
3 — The capital of the state
Jerusalem, complete and united, is the capital of Israel.
4 — Language
A. The state’s language is Hebrew.
B. The Arabic language has a special status in the state; Regulating the use of Arabic in state institutions or by them will be set in law.
C. This clause does not harm the status given to the Arabic language before this law came into effect.
5 — Ingathering of the exiles
The state will be open for Jewish immigration and the ingathering of exiles
6 — Connection to the Jewish people
A. The state will strive to ensure the safety of the members of the Jewish people in trouble or in captivity due to the fact of their Jewishness or their citizenship.
B. The state shall act within the Diaspora to strengthen the affinity between the state and members of the Jewish people.
C. The state shall act to preserve the cultural, historical and religious heritage of the Jewish people among Jews in the Diaspora.
7 — Jewish settlement
A. The state views the development of Jewish settlement as a national value and will act to encourage and promote its establishment and consolidation.
8 — Official calendar
The Hebrew calendar is the official calendar of the state and alongside it the Gregorian calendar will be used as an official calendar. Use of the Hebrew calendar and the Gregorian calendar will be determined by law.
9 — Independence Day and memorial days
A. Independence Day is the official national holiday of the state.
B. Memorial Day for the Fallen in Israel’s Wars and Holocaust and Heroism Remembrance Day are official memorial days of the State.
10 — Days of rest and sabbath
The Sabbath and the festivals of Israel are the established days of rest in the state; Non-Jews have a right to maintain days of rest on their Sabbaths and festivals; Details of this issue will be determined by law.
11 — Immutability
This Basic Law shall not be amended, unless by another Basic Law passed by a majority of Knesset members.
grumbledoak said:
wsurfa said:
And this law refers to photographing the IDF in what way?
It doesn't. It is related to you insinuating that I am a racist.Now read 1.C. of the law you quoted.
wsurfa said:
So there is no law preventing the photographing of the IDF. Just admit you rushed to make a statement without checking the full background, your reasons for doing it, (((well))) I am sure you have them.
Correct. There is no law preventing photographing of the IDF in Israel. It was proposed but not passed, and I only saw the earlier reports.Now, on the subject of racists, about 1.C. above..
grumbledoak said:
wsurfa said:
So there is no law preventing the photographing of the IDF. Just admit you rushed to make a statement without checking the full background, your reasons for doing it, (((well))) I am sure you have them.
Correct. There is no law preventing photographing of the IDF in Israel. It was proposed but not passed, and I only saw the earlier reports.Now, on the subject of racists, about 1.C. above..
Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
Should the Palestinian constitution recognise the special status of Hebrew?
wsurfa said:
So an Israeli Arab is prevented from voting on matters determining the future of Israel? Yes or no? (feel free to change Arab to any other ethnic group)
Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
They are the same?Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
BOR said:
Plenty of israelis who are critical of the israeli government.
Not really, IMO. Like the fuss made over the cartoon posted by Fabricant depicting Khan as a pig being humped by Trump - I mean, would it have been ok to show him being sodomised by something halal? Would it have been ok if Khan was Hindu? Is it not bad enough for a parliamentarian to post that of anyone?The Guardian said:
An Israeli magazine has fired its long-serving cartoonist after he portrayed Benjamin Netanyahu and his allies as pigs from George Orwell’s Animal Farm.
The illustration referenced the Israeli prime minister and members of his party taking a congratulatory selfie after passing a contentious law in parliament that has been decried as giving Jewish people more rights than the country’s minorities.
Anti Semitic ?The illustration referenced the Israeli prime minister and members of his party taking a congratulatory selfie after passing a contentious law in parliament that has been decried as giving Jewish people more rights than the country’s minorities.
The pig thing is sometimes used by islamophobes (and antisemites), the kind of people who think bacon is kryptonite to muslims, but there the problem is less the offensiveness than the intent to offend.
wsurfa said:
So an Israeli Arab is prevented from voting on matters determining the future of Israel? Yes or no? (feel free to change Arab to any other ethnic group)
Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
Should the Palestinian constitution recognise the special status of Hebrew?
If Britain occupied the whole of Ireland (because of our eternal right to exist) but RoI catholics were not allowed to vote would that be reasonable?Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
Should the Palestinian constitution recognise the special status of Hebrew?
Israel has for years given the same legal rights to all it's citizens regardless of religion (I'm referring to Israeli arabs, not those in the west bank or gaza). It has argued that it goes to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties in so far as it can when human shields, hospitals & schools are used by the palestinian military. It is the only true democracy in the ME. In Israel, there are more rights for gay people, for women and for many other minorities than many Western countries, let alone other ME countries.
Yet those on the left in particular, criticize Israel rarely offering even the slimmest of acknowledgements of the above, instead using terms like genocide, apartheid, murderous butchers, child killers, etc. Whilst doing so, the left's support for the Palestinians essentially never criticizes anything they do, from their totally indiscriminate military attacks, to their goading, their human shields, their use of aid monies on the military, their rewards for suicide bombers, the stealing of money by the fat cat leaders of Hamas, the use of schools/hospitals to launch attacks and the unbelievably corrupt and flawed UNRWA.
And as for the UN......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzyH1Pq3bR4
That's a video where one member of the UN after another blames Israel for Palestinian men beating their wives. Then Israel ask where is the data in the report, where is a single actual link, where are the references to senior leaders broadcasting tips on how men should beat their wives, where is the report on whether domestic abuse is more prevalent amongst Palestinians than in other arab countries. There are many more similar examples, but this is one of the more absurd, even by UN standards. The treatment of Israel by the UN compared to any and every other country is appalling. But those on the left in this country seem to recognize absolutely none of this
Put simply, there appears to be no balance by those on the left who without reservation, appear to support Palestinians and utter hate speech about Israel. They love offering 'safe space' in universities...............except to jewish students who suffer daily with abuse
Now it doesn't matter if you don't agree with any of the above. In fact my point is mainly directed at those who don't. Because the above is how the Israeli government feel and how many jews in the diaspora also feel even if you don't. So there are two hardly surprising consequences. The first is that after a while, Israel will turn around and say f*** you. If you don't ever recognise any of the above, why should we bother. Why not just do the things you accuse us of if you are going to constantly criticize regardless. The second is that jews in this country ask why the double standards. Why the lack of balance. What is the obsession with Israel. Why do all the things the left normally stands up for seem to go out of the window when it comes to Israel / Palestine. The only obvious answer the jewish community have to assume is that for some, it's a deeper agenda.
Yet those on the left in particular, criticize Israel rarely offering even the slimmest of acknowledgements of the above, instead using terms like genocide, apartheid, murderous butchers, child killers, etc. Whilst doing so, the left's support for the Palestinians essentially never criticizes anything they do, from their totally indiscriminate military attacks, to their goading, their human shields, their use of aid monies on the military, their rewards for suicide bombers, the stealing of money by the fat cat leaders of Hamas, the use of schools/hospitals to launch attacks and the unbelievably corrupt and flawed UNRWA.
And as for the UN......
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzyH1Pq3bR4
That's a video where one member of the UN after another blames Israel for Palestinian men beating their wives. Then Israel ask where is the data in the report, where is a single actual link, where are the references to senior leaders broadcasting tips on how men should beat their wives, where is the report on whether domestic abuse is more prevalent amongst Palestinians than in other arab countries. There are many more similar examples, but this is one of the more absurd, even by UN standards. The treatment of Israel by the UN compared to any and every other country is appalling. But those on the left in this country seem to recognize absolutely none of this
Put simply, there appears to be no balance by those on the left who without reservation, appear to support Palestinians and utter hate speech about Israel. They love offering 'safe space' in universities...............except to jewish students who suffer daily with abuse
Now it doesn't matter if you don't agree with any of the above. In fact my point is mainly directed at those who don't. Because the above is how the Israeli government feel and how many jews in the diaspora also feel even if you don't. So there are two hardly surprising consequences. The first is that after a while, Israel will turn around and say f*** you. If you don't ever recognise any of the above, why should we bother. Why not just do the things you accuse us of if you are going to constantly criticize regardless. The second is that jews in this country ask why the double standards. Why the lack of balance. What is the obsession with Israel. Why do all the things the left normally stands up for seem to go out of the window when it comes to Israel / Palestine. The only obvious answer the jewish community have to assume is that for some, it's a deeper agenda.
Countdown said:
wsurfa said:
So an Israeli Arab is prevented from voting on matters determining the future of Israel? Yes or no? (feel free to change Arab to any other ethnic group)
Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
Should the Palestinian constitution recognise the special status of Hebrew?
If Britain occupied the whole of Ireland (because of our eternal right to exist) but RoI catholics were not allowed to vote would that be reasonable?Is a vote in Ireland able to determine the future of Northern Ireland? Is an Argentinian statement of ownership more important that the votes of the Falkland Island?
Should the Palestinian constitution recognise the special status of Hebrew?
Perhaps one of the reasons that it’s the “Left” rather than the “Right” which criticises Israeli policies is because some Israeli policies are quite right-wing and, in some cases, Israeli politicians make statements that would be considered “Far right”.
And, FWIW, there are plenty of Jews, even in Israel itself, that criticise Israeli policies. They get tarred with the “self-hating Jews” label as it’s quite hard to call them anti-Semitic.
And, FWIW, there are plenty of Jews, even in Israel itself, that criticise Israeli policies. They get tarred with the “self-hating Jews” label as it’s quite hard to call them anti-Semitic.
jonby said:
Israel has for years given the same legal rights to all it's citizens regardless of religion (I'm referring to Israeli arabs......The only obvious answer the jewish community have to assume is that for some, it's a deeper agenda.
Not going to quote the whole post, but that's basically the size of it.Anyway, jonby, me, & pretty much anybody who tries to 'tell it like it is' will get shouted down by the entire left in this country, along with the BBC, & others. I'm baffled at the bias - perhaps more people should visit to see for themselves....
Biker 1 said:
jonby said:
Israel has for years given the same legal rights to all it's citizens regardless of religion (I'm referring to Israeli arabs......The only obvious answer the jewish community have to assume is that for some, it's a deeper agenda.
Not going to quote the whole post, but that's basically the size of it.Anyway, jonby, me, & pretty much anybody who tries to 'tell it like it is' will get shouted down by the entire left in this country, along with the BBC, & others. I'm baffled at the bias - perhaps more people should visit to see for themselves....
Are you Regev in disguise? I'm baffled.
Countdown said:
Perhaps one of the reasons that it’s the “Left” rather than the “Right” which criticises Israeli policies is because some Israeli policies are quite right-wing and, in some cases, Israeli politicians make statements that would be considered “Far right”.
And, FWIW, there are plenty of Jews, even in Israel itself, that criticise Israeli policies. They get tarred with the “self-hating Jews” label as it’s quite hard to call them anti-Semitic.
from the far right it tends to be far more transparent, and to a large extent, old fashioned stereo typical anti semitism. In fact, I often view it is not so much an anti jewish thing and more an anti anyone who doesnt fit into the boxes of the racist bigotsAnd, FWIW, there are plenty of Jews, even in Israel itself, that criticise Israeli policies. They get tarred with the “self-hating Jews” label as it’s quite hard to call them anti-Semitic.
But there are few jews suggesting Israel should be beyond criticism. Those who do would get short shrift from me and many other jews. The 'self hating jews' label tends only to be applied to those who have such extreme views they don't even believe in Israel's right to exist. The likes of Neturei Karta who are regularly wheeled out in front of pro palestinian parades - these are religious nutters who believe Israel should be dismantled and who regularly burn the Israeli flag
But again, those on the left who have taken up the palestinian cause do not appear to simply be critics of some Israeli governmental policy - I'll not repeat the previous post but just ask for answers to some of the questions I pose there.
Do you think it's helpful, for instance, if peace is seriously what this is all about (and unlike those commenting from the outside, few in Israel or gaza/west bank, who see loved ones dying on an all too regular basis, want anything other than peace), for the UN to behave in the way that it does, or to have anti apartheid week in british universities where jewish students are threatened and harassed, or to accuse Israel of committing genocide when it clearly doesnt, or to refer to Israel as baby killers when they are the only force in the world that goes to the degrees it does to avoid civilian casualties.
Should Hamas really never be condemned, despite how many times it is proven they lie and manipulate the media, to the extent they are so cocky they even admit it after the event with a snigger, that never gets picked up on by the left ? Is this attitude really in the name of peace ?
It's quite rare to see something that is genuinely shocking, but this Labour Councillor has just managed it
https://twitter.com/adamlangleben/status/102279556...
https://twitter.com/adamlangleben/status/102279556...
jonby said:
Do you think it's helpful, for instance, if peace is seriously what this is all about (and unlike those commenting from the outside, few in Israel or gaza/west bank, who see loved ones dying on an all too regular basis, want anything other than peace), for the UN to behave in the way that it does, or to have anti apartheid week in british universities where jewish students are threatened and harassed, or to accuse Israel of committing genocide when it clearly doesnt, or to refer to Israel as baby killers when they are the only force in the world that goes to the degrees it does to avoid civilian casualties.
Sorry, busy at work at the moment so will try to reply to the rest of your post later. Re: the bit in bold above, there are countless examples of Israeli soldiers targetting civilians. Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall were two well-known examples but only because it wasn't so easy for them to be labelled automatically as "Hamas militants".https://www.hrw.org/news/2014/08/04/gaza-israeli-s...
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-ea...
Actual comments from serving IDF soldiers below.
https://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimonies/...
jonby said:
Countdown said:
Perhaps one of the reasons that it’s the “Left” rather than the “Right” which criticises Israeli policies is because some Israeli policies are quite right-wing and, in some cases, Israeli politicians make statements that would be considered “Far right”.
And, FWIW, there are plenty of Jews, even in Israel itself, that criticise Israeli policies. They get tarred with the “self-hating Jews” label as it’s quite hard to call them anti-Semitic.
from the far right it tends to be far more transparent, and to a large extent, old fashioned stereo typical anti semitism. In fact, I often view it is not so much an anti jewish thing and more an anti anyone who doesnt fit into the boxes of the racist bigotsAnd, FWIW, there are plenty of Jews, even in Israel itself, that criticise Israeli policies. They get tarred with the “self-hating Jews” label as it’s quite hard to call them anti-Semitic.
But there are few jews suggesting Israel should be beyond criticism. Those who do would get short shrift from me and many other jews. The 'self hating jews' label tends only to be applied to those who have such extreme views they don't even believe in Israel's right to exist. The likes of Neturei Karta who are regularly wheeled out in front of pro palestinian parades - these are religious nutters who believe Israel should be dismantled and who regularly burn the Israeli flag
But again, those on the left who have taken up the palestinian cause do not appear to simply be critics of some Israeli governmental policy - I'll not repeat the previous post but just ask for answers to some of the questions I pose there.
Do you think it's helpful, for instance, if peace is seriously what this is all about (and unlike those commenting from the outside, few in Israel or gaza/west bank, who see loved ones dying on an all too regular basis, want anything other than peace), for the UN to behave in the way that it does, or to have anti apartheid week in british universities where jewish students are threatened and harassed, or to accuse Israel of committing genocide when it clearly doesnt, or to refer to Israel as baby killers when they are the only force in the world that goes to the degrees it does to avoid civilian casualties.
Should Hamas really never be condemned, despite how many times it is proven they lie and manipulate the media, to the extent they are so cocky they even admit it after the event with a snigger, that never gets picked up on by the left ? Is this attitude really in the name of peace ?
As for "they are the only force in the world that goes to the degrees it does to avoid civilian casualties". That's just plain puffery,. Are you seeking some kind of praise for killing only 1000s of civilians, when of course that number could many hundreds of thousands if you weren't so thoughful and diligent?
Tell me this, when you're sat in your $35M strike helicopter, or in your $100M+ naval vessel, about 10-20 miles distant and ready to launch some missiles or shells onto a beach, what degrees do you actually go to to avoid wiping out groups of children playing?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/11/isra...
Biker 1 said:
JuniorD said:
people who have been systematically removed from their land
Absolute BS - I bet you've never been to the ME, let alone Israel or the territories. I rest my case.Thus if I have been to one of those places, you lose the argument?
I’ll take that
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