Anti-Semitism and the British Left.
Discussion
Have been reading more about the ‘fringe speaker’ mentioned in the opening post. He has an interesting history - he’s ex special forces in the IDF. His father was a general in the IDF and his grandfather a signatory of Israel’s founding Declaration of Independence. Miko Peled, who still identifies as a Jew, now holds a lot of anti Israeli views however he can hardly be anti-Semitic, or can he? Many within the Israeli establishment still think he’s anti-Semitic. For example, this former IDF spokesman. The lines really have been blurred.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AviMayer
https://mobile.twitter.com/AviMayer
BlackLabel said:
Have been reading more about the ‘fringe speaker’ mentioned in the opening post. He has an interesting history - he’s ex special forces in the IDF. His father was a general in the IDF and his grandfather a signatory of Israel’s founding Declaration of Independence. Miko Peled, who still identifies as a Jew, now holds a lot of anti Israeli views however he can hardly be anti-Semitic, or can he? Many within the Israeli establishment still think he’s anti-Semitic. For example, this former IDF spokesman. The lines really have been blurred.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AviMayer
Some Jews voted NSDAP (National Socialist German Workers’ Party) in 1933. Self-hatred is a thing. Just look at old Gerald Kaufman. “Here we are, the Jews again” and “Jewish money, Jewish donations to the Conservative Party – as in the general election in May”https://mobile.twitter.com/AviMayer
Derek Smith said:
otolith said:
Conspiracy theorists who get off on thinking they know better than everyone else. See also moon landing, flat earth, chemtrails, 9-11 loons, etc.
I was unaware of the chemtrails weirdos. I'm even more scared of people now.
amusingduck said:
It just strikes me as a little odd that someone could deny the rape of Nanking without repercussions (as far as I'm aware), or the Armenian genocide, but not the Holocaust. I prefer the law to be as objective and consistent as possible.
I think that generally, speech should be as free as possible. I think we'd have an easier time tackling racism etc if it was all out in the open, I think there would be more opportunity to educate people when it is less hidden. I may be wrong.
I read recently of a black American chap who managed to convert a load of KKK members. It wasn't even his intention to do so, he just wanted to listen to their viewpoint, and over time they reached the right conclusion themselves. His success gives me hope that people aren't rigidly confined to these boxes [racism, sexism, homophobia, etc], they just need the opportunity to see for themselves. I don't think making speech illegal helps in that regard.
Hopefully this makes a little sense
I get where you are coming from, the problem though (IMO), is that you appear rational and not everybody is plus some are very easily ledI think that generally, speech should be as free as possible. I think we'd have an easier time tackling racism etc if it was all out in the open, I think there would be more opportunity to educate people when it is less hidden. I may be wrong.
I read recently of a black American chap who managed to convert a load of KKK members. It wasn't even his intention to do so, he just wanted to listen to their viewpoint, and over time they reached the right conclusion themselves. His success gives me hope that people aren't rigidly confined to these boxes [racism, sexism, homophobia, etc], they just need the opportunity to see for themselves. I don't think making speech illegal helps in that regard.
Hopefully this makes a little sense
I have an awful lot of support for the arguments for consistency and as I think I've said before, by & large I also believe censorship of every kind should be with the lightest touch possible
I also particularly agree with the idea that the route of many of the ills in the world is ignorance. However IMO there are some things that should remain sacred to protect against ignorance, particularly in respect of those people who for whatever reason will never be educated
Of course seeing the other 'side's' point of view or at least attempting to is a vital part of education. For that reason I read the Guardian online despite being far from a socialist and Haaretz (the most liberal & left wing mainstream Israeli paper). I've visited churches & a mosque. I'm far from religious or observant (I don't believe in god despite my jewish heritage being a large part of what makes me who I am), but I have close ties to my local synagogue so I've seen first hand the benefits of their newly forged links with the local church & mosque, where they invite each other round just to see what goes on and break down barriers. So yes, I do get that premise
But we do get back to the point or more accurately, I personally get back to the point, where some areas are so extreme, they should be sacred with regards to free speech because there is no possible net beneficial reason for them not being - I can see some limited merit in the idea of quite literally completely free speech, but I do not believe the upsides come remotely close to covering the downsides. I've recently had reason to read a few books & watch a couple of programmes on the history of slavery in America, something I only then realised I knew frighteningly little about. It's given me a new insight into the background of the dehumanisation of black people in the 1700s to help justify slavery and in turn, the significance of certain perpetuated racial stereotypes. I guess it wasn't just what I learned from a factual point of view, but the fact what I read was in turn very thought provoking. I'm not going to pretend to know much, unfortunately, beyond the headlines about the Armenian genocide or what the Japanese troops did at Nanking, so I don't have a view on how they fit into free speech other than 'possibly'.
otolith said:
Conspiracy theorists who get off on thinking they know better than everyone else. See also moon landing, flat earth, chemtrails, 9-11 loons, etc.
What's weird is that we've always had these nutters but it does seem that modern technology means they are no longer isolated, in the park arguing with pigeons when everyone else is at work but out there in the electronic world finding enormous audiences among the poorly educated, slow witted and mentally ill. Of which there appear to be legion. The Labour party is finished. Unless they admit that Corbyn has presided over the biggest rise in anti-semitism in the UK for decades, and remove him, they are fully accepting an identity as a racist party. It's unthinkable that it's comes to this. Although I don't agree with all of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's politics, they would never have let this happen on their watch. I can't believe no-one has gone to jail over this yet. Maybe it's just a matter of time before someone does, and then Labour will be utterly exposed as an anti-semitic mess. Sad.
DonkeyApple said:
otolith said:
Conspiracy theorists who get off on thinking they know better than everyone else. See also moon landing, flat earth, chemtrails, 9-11 loons, etc.
What's weird is that we've always had these nutters but it does seem that modern technology means they are no longer isolated, in the park arguing with pigeons when everyone else is at work but out there in the electronic world finding enormous audiences among the poorly educated, slow witted and mentally ill. Of which there appear to be legion. BlackLabel said:
Have been reading more about the ‘fringe speaker’ mentioned in the opening post. He has an interesting history - he’s ex special forces in the IDF. His father was a general in the IDF and his grandfather a signatory of Israel’s founding Declaration of Independence. Miko Peled, who still identifies as a Jew, now holds a lot of anti Israeli views however he can hardly be anti-Semitic, or can he? Many within the Israeli establishment still think he’s anti-Semitic. For example, this former IDF spokesman. The lines really have been blurred.
https://mobile.twitter.com/AviMayer
As far as I can see his views are anti-Settler/anti-Zionist. Having googled a fair bit about him I can't see what he's said that's anti-Jewish per se.https://mobile.twitter.com/AviMayer
Countdown said:
As far as I can see his views are anti-Settler/anti-Zionist. Having googled a fair bit about him I can't see what he's said that's anti-Jewish per se.
“This is about free speech, the freedom to criticise and to discuss every issue, whether it’s the Holocaust: yes or no, Palestine, the liberation, the whole spectrum. There should be no limits on the discussion.”“It’s about the limits of tolerance: we don’t invite the Nazis and give them an hour to explain why they are right; we do not invite apartheid South Africa racists to explain why apartheid was good for the blacks; and in the same way we do not invite Zionists – it’s a very similar kind of thing.”
So, he's comparing Zionists to Nazis. That is. Also, look at how he's prepared to allow holocaust denial, but not Zionists...
The following article paints the picture well. Anti-semitism is rife within the Labour party. And it's only getting worse. By the time the police investigate, which they will, Labour will have committed political suicide:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep...
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep...
98elise said:
Funkycoldribena said:
How it can be denied is beyond me.
Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
The stupidity of some people?Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
Empirical evidence is no match for stupidity.
Johnny5hoods said:
98elise said:
Funkycoldribena said:
How it can be denied is beyond me.
Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
The stupidity of some people?Pictures, video, thousands of witnesses.
Or am I missing something?
Empirical evidence is no match for stupidity.
otolith said:
Conspiracy theorists who get off on thinking they know better than everyone else. See also moon landing, flat earth, chemtrails, 9-11 loons, etc.
I can slightly and I mean slightly, get my head around most of those as conspiracy theories but flat earth? You only have to go in a plane.Or is it slightly curved flat earth?
Johnny5hoods said:
The Labour party is finished. Unless they admit that Corbyn has presided over the biggest rise in anti-semitism in the UK for decades, and remove him, they are fully accepting an identity as a racist party. It's unthinkable that it's comes to this. Although I don't agree with all of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's politics, they would never have let this happen on their watch. I can't believe no-one has gone to jail over this yet. Maybe it's just a matter of time before someone does, and then Labour will be utterly exposed as an anti-semitic mess. Sad.
I think you'll find that being Antisemitic is not a vote loser in the U.K. 
Countdown said:
As far as I can see his views are anti-Settler/anti-Zionist. Having googled a fair bit about him I can't see what he's said that's anti-Jewish per se.
That's been my impression of him. It does look like Zionists trying to stifle the debate by making out it is an Antisemitic issue. Johnny5hoods said:
The Labour party is finished. Unless they admit that Corbyn has presided over the biggest rise in anti-semitism in the UK for decades, and remove him, they are fully accepting an identity as a racist party. It's unthinkable that it's comes to this. Although I don't agree with all of Tony Blair and Gordon Brown's politics, they would never have let this happen on their watch. I can't believe no-one has gone to jail over this yet. Maybe it's just a matter of time before someone does, and then Labour will be utterly exposed as an anti-semitic mess. Sad.
The labour party is the biggest in the EU. At one time it had a record increase in membership. Using the term finished is complacent. The threat is there.
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