18 year old electrician paying the tuition fees of 'toffs'

[turbobloke]

That's while setting to one side the confusion in such types regarding correlation and causality.

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

Assuming they're still allowed to award such elitist things, being an elite institution suited to the academic elite not seeming to matter much these days.

It's improving but it's still a certain type of academic elite.

not "the academic elite"

[turbobloke]

desolate said:

turbobloke said:

Assuming they're still allowed to award such elitist things, being an elite institution suited to the academic elite not seeming to matter much these days.

It's improving but it's still a certain type of academic elite.

not "the academic elite"

Simply wrong. Your chip is showing.

Take a look at Norrington for Mansfield compared to Magdalen or Merton.

Try a quick check of the entry requirements for Oxford degrees. Offers for students studying A-levels will range between A*A*A and AAA depending on the course.

Then glance at international higher education institution rankings to see which UK universities are consistently at or near the top.

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

Simply wrong. Your chip is showing.

Take a look at Norrington for Mansfield compared to Magdalen or Merton.

Try a quick check of the entry requirements for Oxford degrees. Offers for students studying A-levels will range between A*A*A and AAA depending on the course.

Then glance at international higher education institution rankings to see which UK universities are consistently at or near the top.

I am perfectly well balanced - I have a chip on both shoulders.

I am well aware of what's required to get into decent universities and my son is currently going through the process.

Have a quick check at the demographics - whole swathes of society are underrepresented and it isn't because they are thick. It's because of the system favours people taught in a certain manner.

Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 17th November 13:30

[anonymous-user]

The system favours those who do well in a type of academic training which is then useful at university and in various types of jobs. The reasons that children from some socio-economic groups are under represented at elite universities include variable school quality, lack of parental involvement, and other factors associated with poverty.

[anonymous-user]

Breadvan72 said:

The system favours those who do well in a type of academic training which is then useful at university and in various types of jobs. The reasons that children from some socio-economic groups are under represented at elite universities include variable school quality, lack of parental involvement, and other factors associated with poverty.

I agree - many schools are simply not equipped to help those capable of reaching the required standard.

Granted most people have to be bright to get in, but it favours a certain type.

I do have a chip on my shoulder and in this regard it is justified.

[turbobloke]

desolate said:

I am perfectly well balanced - I have a chip on both shoulders.

desolate said:

I am well aware of what's required to get into wear and my son is currently going through the process.

Have a quick check at the demographics - whole swathes of society are underrepresented and it isn't because they are thick. It's because of the system favours people taught in a certain manner.

You're the one confusing demographic factors with academic excellence. Very wealthy people are not barred from having very able children.

The failings of too large a proportion of the state education sector don't rest on the lawns of Oxford colleges, yet that's where Labour parks its egalitarian delusion troop carriers.

Also, within limits, it doesn't matter what you wear

I hope all goes well for your son.

[liner33]

Its extremely well established that children from poorer families do worse at school, thats why the pupil premium was created to give schools more money to target those groups.

[V8 Fettler]

Breadvan72 said:

Some figures on graduate earnings, unsurprisingly showing that Russell group graduates do quite well -

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41693230
-
-

Is median the best descriptor?

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

You're the one confusing demographic factors with academic excellence.

The failings of too large a proportion of the state education sector don't rest on the lawns of Oxford colleges, yet that's where Labour parks its egalitarian delusion troop carriers.

Also, within limits, it doesn't matter what you wear

I don't know where the "wear" came from. in my post - I blame Thatcher.

My narrow point is that "Oxbridge" is a certain type of academic excellence.

Certain institutions are full of such types. Look at Parliament. Look at the BBC.

If that's excellence than fair enough, but why don't we try to improve our outlook and see that excellence could lie elsewhere as well.

As an aside I never mentioned "state education." It's a factor but there are plenty of ste private schools as well.

[anonymous-user]

Perseverant said:

Personally I'd get rid of charitable status for public schools

I agree then they can put up fees, stop offering scholarships and bursaries or sharing their facilities with local state schools. Make an excellent education even more inaccessible. Quite a few will fail but the state system can pick up the slack. Good idea.

[turbobloke]

desolate said:

I don't know where the "wear" came from. in my post - I blame Thatcher.

My narrow point is that "Oxbridge" is a certain type of academic excellence.

The type of excellence open to anyone, all can apply but not all will get prizes. A*A*A is a good starting point, from there it's onwards and upwards to a slot at or near the top of global university rankings.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/education/educat...

Link said:

British universities have taken the top two places in global league tables for the first time in 13 years, with Oxford University crowned the best in the world.

Cambridge jumped from fourth to second place in the influential World University Rankings – the first time both institutions have held the top two positions.

desolate said:

Certain institutions are full of such types. Look at Parliament. Look at the BBC.

PPE? It's also a biased sample in terms of right-on lefties.

desolate said:

If that's excellence than fair enough, but why don't we try to improve our outlook and see that excellence could lie elsewhere as well.

Totally, let's start with improving the backwaters of the state education sector.

desolate said:

As an aside I never mentioned "state education." It's a factor but there are plenty of ste private schools as well.

How many?

UK independent schools have a world class reputation. Not so for boggo comps.

It would still be a good thing to see more state school high fliers applying and gaining admission to Oxbridge.

[anonymous-user]

fblm said:

I agree then they can put up fees, stop offering scholarships and bursaries or sharing their facilities with local state schools. Make an excellent education even more inaccessible. Quite a few will fail but the state system can pick up the slack. Good idea.

Is there a study on what private schools do to justify the status?

Between them my kids have been to 5 private schools and as far as I can tell 4 of them do SFA.

[anonymous-user]

desolate said:

Is there a study on what private schools do to justify the status?

Between them my kids have been to 5 private schools and as far as I can tell 4 of them do SFA.

I only know the public school I went to on a bursary does all that stuff and more to keep it's status. Are you sure the 4 private schools you know are actually charities? It would seem not. The broader point is that taking a swipe at private schools will do bu66er all to improve state schools.

[anonymous-user]

Breadvan72 said:

The system favours those who do well in a type of academic training which is then useful at university and in various types of jobs. The reasons that children from some socio-economic groups are under represented at elite universities include variable school quality, lack of parental involvement, and other factors associated with poverty.

And resistance from second rate teachers...

[anonymous-user]

fblm said:

I only know the public school I went to on a bursary does all that stuff and more to keep it's status. Are you sure the 4 private schools you know are actually charities? It would seem not. The broader point is that taking a swipe at private schools will do bu66er all to improve state schools.

Yes they are.

[anonymous-user]

Some private schools are just commercial rackets like St Custard's, but others do worthy things including scholarships and various forms of social outreach. When I lived near the Cally Road in Islington I used to see at the bus stop a black kid from a stty estate looking very smart in his City of London School uniform. The break that he obtained may transform his life and that of his family.

[anonymous-user]

turbobloke said:

How many?

UK independent schools have a world class reputation. Not so for boggo comps.

It would still be a good thing to see more state school high fliers applying and gaining admission to Oxbridge.

I can name 3, but I won't.

It's a shame that we apparently can't afford world class state education. Seems like a false economy to me.

As for your last sentence, it's good to see you shifting to a more Lammyesque position regarding this matter.

[anonymous-user]

desolate said:

Yes they are.

Interesting. Well the guardian claims charitable status helps private schools avoid vat and biz rates to the tune of 500m. On the flip side private schools offer 350m of means tested bursaries and relieve the state system of 3bn liability to teach those kids. Real charities or not, seems like a good deal for the tax payer to me.

Perhaps the solution should involve improving state schools not punishing private schools?

[anonymous-user]

desolate said:

It's a shame that we apparently can't afford world class state education. Seems like a false economy to me.

Totally agree.