Universal Credit
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
TooMany2cvs said:
...
"Up to 55p/min" - well, yes... IF you have a spectacularly expensive PAYG tariff that charges you 55p for calling any landline. ..
....
You may be viewing life through the viewfinder of the reasonably well to do. Poverty brings with it many forms of practical disadvantage. An expensive PAYG phone may be all that a poor person can get, as he or she may lack the credit profile to get a good deal. "Up to 55p/min" - well, yes... IF you have a spectacularly expensive PAYG tariff that charges you 55p for calling any landline. ..
....
Or 60p into a BT payphone (if you can find one...) buys you half an hour of call time to an 0345 number - 40p connection, plus 2 x 10p "units" of 900 seconds to 01/02/03.
http://www.bt.co.uk/pricing/current/Call_Charges_b...
drainbrain said:
In it's turn, "The DSS" replaced the previous term for the agency which was "the burroo". Which, presumably, was how the uneducated pronounced "bureau".
One term for the mess that seems to have survived since it ever was first created is "the dole".
The term dole dates back to medieval charitable giving by monks and others. Rome, famously, offered cheap or free wheat to some of its citizens, and the number of citizens eligible for cheap or free wheat became a political football in the late Republic. In history there are few novelties.One term for the mess that seems to have survived since it ever was first created is "the dole".
TooMany2cvs said:
I have a PAYG phone - no signal at home, so no point in having a contract. It's the absolute bare minimum, and I shove a tenner on it about every three months. It's 30p/min to landlines, including 0345. Or I could use that same tenner to buy a bundle that includes umpteen minutes of calls, data, texts.
Or 60p into a BT payphone (if you can find one...) buys you half an hour of call time to an 0345 number - 40p connection, plus 2 x 10p "units" of 900 seconds to 01/02/03.
http://www.bt.co.uk/pricing/current/Call_Charges_b...
You probably have a choice of what phone service to use, and spare tenners lying around if need be. Poverty limits choices. As for a BT payphone, try living on an estate in Stockton on Tees or Hartlepool or Edmonton or Portsmouth or wherever and finding one of those.Or 60p into a BT payphone (if you can find one...) buys you half an hour of call time to an 0345 number - 40p connection, plus 2 x 10p "units" of 900 seconds to 01/02/03.
http://www.bt.co.uk/pricing/current/Call_Charges_b...
TooMany2cvs said:
That was - as with so many such manufactured furores - such a massive misrepresentation...
"Up to 55p/min" - well, yes... IF you have a spectacularly expensive PAYG tariff that charges you 55p for calling any landline. 0345 numbers are the same price as any landline.
Stepchange debt charity? Many of their helpline numbers are 0300.
Trussell Trust, the foodbank charity? Their contact number is a landline, most of their foodbanks only publish a mobile number.
Citizens Advice Bureau? 0344, but many of their local numbers are premium-rate 0845.
Customers and Taxpayers can easily be kept waiting on the phone for thirty minutes or more"Up to 55p/min" - well, yes... IF you have a spectacularly expensive PAYG tariff that charges you 55p for calling any landline. 0345 numbers are the same price as any landline.
Stepchange debt charity? Many of their helpline numbers are 0300.
Trussell Trust, the foodbank charity? Their contact number is a landline, most of their foodbanks only publish a mobile number.
Citizens Advice Bureau? 0344, but many of their local numbers are premium-rate 0845.
The assumption in much of how Universal Credit is supposed to work is that people who claim credit/benefits are -
a) smart
b) capable
c) functioning well
d) have access to up to date IT technology, are comfortable with it and able to use it
e) have good access to support from family and friends
The reality, of course, is that much of the above is patently not where benefit/credit claimants are in their lives. Indeed, if they were in a position where points a) to e) were all descriptive of their lives, they probably wouldn't be claimants.
a) smart
b) capable
c) functioning well
d) have access to up to date IT technology, are comfortable with it and able to use it
e) have good access to support from family and friends
The reality, of course, is that much of the above is patently not where benefit/credit claimants are in their lives. Indeed, if they were in a position where points a) to e) were all descriptive of their lives, they probably wouldn't be claimants.
edh said:
TooMany2cvs said:
edh said:
Calls to DWP lines are not optional they are, for many, the only way of communicating.
I thought UC queries could be dealt with at job centres? The web is, of course, accessible for free through local libraries (yes, yes, I know...).I think there's been far too much faith put in moving these benefits online. Many of the most vulnerable and needy just can't hack it. If you phone to initiate a claim, they will try very hard to push you online - "haven't you got a friend with a computer?" "what about the library?" All sounds very reasonable from a solid middle class perspective.
Breadvan72 said:
It seems that many people just can't envision what life is like outside the comfortable middle class world. Middle class parent can say to the nanny/au pair/cleaner "I am popping out, please keep an eye on the children". Bus? Train? No problem, the oyster card is fully charged. Or take the car (taxed, insured, fuelled, maintained, 250 quid a year parking permit) and pop it on a meter. Pay by phone. Use your smart cards. All that stuff. We all take it for granted. People on benefits live outside some of those systems. Some argue that life on benefits has become a lifestyle choice and for some it has, but it's not a lifestyle choice that many of us would make or a lifestyle that we would enjoy.
No denial of any of that - yet, equally, there's a hefty degree of patronising assumption that all benefits claimants live in some kind of Hogarthian hell, and are completely unable to manage their own finances and prioritise who they pay.The reality, of course, is that the truth is somewhere in the middle, with outliers in both directions, and there's an awful lot of hyperbole going on for political effect.
I know a middle class professional woman who lost her job, relationship and home and found herself living in poverty. She is a highly capable person, but found the layers of difficulty and obstacles facing someone living on the breadline to be considerable. She is in the process of pulling herself out of her mess, but it's hard to do.
I would say that the bulk of people who find themselves requiring benefits are suffering some sort of mental health problems.
Over 30 years ago we made a societal decision that keeping people in mental institutions was not a good idea. The term "care in the community" was how the new system would work.
One of the upshots for "caring in the community" is having to fund it somehow.
Over 30 years ago we made a societal decision that keeping people in mental institutions was not a good idea. The term "care in the community" was how the new system would work.
One of the upshots for "caring in the community" is having to fund it somehow.
The rules & regulations of the benefits system can be insanely complex(hell,even the decision makers,supposedly trained in this, dont know it all,or think they do,and often cock it up),and if youre none too clever,or have no experience of it, it can be a nightmare...think Kafka or Brazil,with yellow & green corporate branding
I complete forms for a living, mostly tax related and mostly, these days, on line.
A couple of years ago my wife and I were assisting her brother (who had mental health issues) in completing various benefit application forms - which he was incapable of completing himself. One form was 45 pages long - with on average six to eight "boxes" on each page - that is around 300 data points being requested on each application!!!!
The average tax return has between 12 to 15 pages.
There is just no way that a person who is in "a bad place" is able to get to grips with that level of enquiry and detail.
A couple of years ago my wife and I were assisting her brother (who had mental health issues) in completing various benefit application forms - which he was incapable of completing himself. One form was 45 pages long - with on average six to eight "boxes" on each page - that is around 300 data points being requested on each application!!!!
The average tax return has between 12 to 15 pages.
There is just no way that a person who is in "a bad place" is able to get to grips with that level of enquiry and detail.
Eric Mc said:
I complete forms for a living, mostly tax related and mostly, these days, on line.
A couple of years ago my wife and I were assisting her brother (who had mental health issues) in completing various benefit application forms - which he was incapable of completing himself. One form was 45 pages long - with on average six to eight "boxes" on each page - that is around 300 data points being requested on each application!!!!
Seems like a good reason to replace multiple individual benefits with one single, unified one.A couple of years ago my wife and I were assisting her brother (who had mental health issues) in completing various benefit application forms - which he was incapable of completing himself. One form was 45 pages long - with on average six to eight "boxes" on each page - that is around 300 data points being requested on each application!!!!
Eric Mc said:
The assumption in much of how Universal Credit is supposed to work is that people who claim credit/benefits are -
a) smart
b) capable
c) functioning well
d) have access to up to date IT technology, are comfortable with it and able to use it
e) have good access to support from family and friends
The reality, of course, is that much of the above is patently not where benefit/credit claimants are in their lives. Indeed, if they were in a position where points a) to e) were all descriptive of their lives, they probably wouldn't be claimants.
Universal credit replaces working tax credits so actually a-d is a reasonable assumption for a large number of claimants. a) smart
b) capable
c) functioning well
d) have access to up to date IT technology, are comfortable with it and able to use it
e) have good access to support from family and friends
The reality, of course, is that much of the above is patently not where benefit/credit claimants are in their lives. Indeed, if they were in a position where points a) to e) were all descriptive of their lives, they probably wouldn't be claimants.
Eventually it will be claimed by households containing 8 million people if the rollout continues until the end.
There are no doubt some vulnerable people who will need assistance to claim it.
TooMany2cvs said:
Eric Mc said:
I complete forms for a living, mostly tax related and mostly, these days, on line.
A couple of years ago my wife and I were assisting her brother (who had mental health issues) in completing various benefit application forms - which he was incapable of completing himself. One form was 45 pages long - with on average six to eight "boxes" on each page - that is around 300 data points being requested on each application!!!!
Seems like a good reason to replace multiple individual benefits with one single, unified one.A couple of years ago my wife and I were assisting her brother (who had mental health issues) in completing various benefit application forms - which he was incapable of completing himself. One form was 45 pages long - with on average six to eight "boxes" on each page - that is around 300 data points being requested on each application!!!!
Don't for a second think that merging multiple benefits into one will make the application process any easier. All the stories I have heard indicate to me the the application process is no easier. They still want the same data. In fact, they will almost definitely want even more.
Eric Mc said:
I would say that the bulk of people who find themselves requiring benefits are suffering some sort of mental health problems.
.
Sorry the "bulk of people"?.
These are benefits claimed for a large part by those in low paid work. Unless the check out girls, restaurant staff and cleaners you meet on a day to day basis mostly appear to be suffering from mental health issues then I would suggest this is a gross exaggeration.
kowalski655 said:
That long one (ooh err missus) sounds like a DLA/PIP one, which isnt included in UC, but is a nightmare to fill in properly, hence so many succesful appeals on PIP once people get proper advice
Indeed it was - and, as you say, has not been abolished because of Universal Credit.All Universal Credit does is merge what were referred to as "Tax Credits". Tax Credits were invented by one Gordon Brown ostensibly to replace old style Tax Allowances and were an additional set of "claims" over and above the existing Benefits system.
The Benefits System still exists as a stand alone entity - with its own separate bureaucracy.
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