Carrilion in trouble

[Alpinestars]

Jockman said:

arfursleep said:

Digga said:

120 days. Harsh. There are some other big names within the plant and construction industry that try to do similar with their (mostly smaller) suppliers.

120 days is standard in big industry. They normally demand payment in 60 days from their customers and "bank" the money for 60 days.

had one customer tell me that directly that was they did and he saw no problem with it...so i bumped the cost up by 5%

So essentially they are using their Suppliers as a Bank..........as well as borrowing money from, erm, banks. Strong and stable, as they say.

I think the terms under which they got paid under some contracts (particularly with Middle East customers) were long credit terms. So they effectively passed the credit period onto suppliers.

[Alpinestars]

Jockman said:

Alpinestars said:

Alpinestars said:

Yipper said:

What a mess.

Government and banks shrugging their shoulders and not giving a f*ck about British industry yet again.

Banks have lent money. They naturally want it back. What more did you want them to do?

Government took a sensible approach so as not to put valuable contracts and essential services at risk. Unless you mean the Government for using Carillion as a provider of (essential) services.

Not sure why the Banks should have supported it? They are a commercial enterprise in their own right.

Did you just quote yourself?

bks I think I did. It's been a long day!

[Smiler.]

Interesting snippet from Guido:

"George Osborne’s Evening Standard editorial on Carillion today: “Why has the state found itself so dependent on a few very large outsourcing firms? The failure to use a variety of smaller, mid-size companies undermines innovation and leaves services hostage when things go wrong.”

George Osborne, signing off on another Carillion contract as Chancellor in 2014: “It is great to see successful companies like Carillion winning contracts around the world. This deal, the first in a pipeline of many, will help us reverse the age-old trend of not exporting enough, boosting growth and creating jobs.”

He even wore their hat…"

[Digga]

Smiler. said:

Interesting snippet from Guido:

"George Osborne’s Evening Standard editorial on Carillion today: “Why has the state found itself so dependent on a few very large outsourcing firms? The failure to use a variety of smaller, mid-size companies undermines innovation and leaves services hostage when things go wrong.”

George Osborne, signing off on another Carillion contract as Chancellor in 2014: “It is great to see successful companies like Carillion winning contracts around the world. This deal, the first in a pipeline of many, will help us reverse the age-old trend of not exporting enough, boosting growth and creating jobs.”

He even wore their hat…"

Typical example of governments being haplessly unaware of unintended consequences of their actions, the relative merits of of businesses and the dangers of only awarding contracts to large corporations. Standard.

[turbomoped]

If all the business goes to other suppliers to service does that mean vast layers of management out on their ear at carillion? Although no doubt there will be a bidding war for their talent's for winning business they cant do. These are the most prized skills and im not joking.

[V8 Fettler]

arfursleep said:

Digga said:

120 days. Harsh. There are some other big names within the plant and construction industry that try to do similar with their (mostly smaller) suppliers.

120 days is standard in big industry. They normally demand payment in 60 days from their customers and "bank" the money for 60 days.

had one customer tell me that directly that was they did and he saw no problem with it...so i bumped the cost up by 5%

30 days is achievable on a well-managed project, 15 days for smaller labour-only subbies.

[Willy Nilly]

arfursleep said:

Digga said:

120 days. Harsh. There are some other big names within the plant and construction industry that try to do similar with their (mostly smaller) suppliers.

120 days is standard in big industry. They normally demand payment in 60 days from their customers and "bank" the money for 60 days.

had one customer tell me that directly that was they did and he saw no problem with it...so i bumped the cost up by 5%

How quickly do (did) they expect to get pain in?

[Rovinghawk]

turbomoped said:

no doubt there will be a bidding war for their talent's for winning business they cant do. These are the most prized skills and im not joking.

A huge number are unemployable aholes- the good ones stand out.

[Yipper]

PurpleMoonlight said:

Yipper said:

What a mess.

Government and banks shrugging their shoulders and not giving a f*ck about British industry yet again.

Badly run British industry you mean surely.

See post from a few pages ago. It's typically British from start to finish.

Shoddy directors desperate to play the big man ran a low-asset, high-debt operation that underpriced bids knowing full well they would lose money, while massively lining their own pockets with millions in bonuses.

Auditors under-audited and ignored warning signs in exchange for fat fees. Like the banking crisis a few years ago.

Banks approved loans and debt for mega bids that were obviously hugely risky or unprofitable. And then when their own decisions backfired, they refused to help save them.

Government approved bids that they knew would lose the company money. And then when their own decisions backfired, they refused to help save them.

If Carillion had been German, it would probably not have gotten into this mess in the first place. And if it did, the German banks and government would have bent over backwards to save them. Instead, the Brits have just gone "f*ck It, they're just some scummy builders who don't wear a shiny white office shirt like me".

[crankedup]

Does not the eu still prevent National Government fianacial assistance to private industries, thought this to be the case? Or is this simply a case of non favouring to British Companies?

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Yipper said:

Instead, the Brits have just gone "f*ck It, they're just some scummy builders who don't wear a shiny white office shirt like me".

I was thinking you sometimes get unnecessary stick...

.....but now I think I agree with everybody else

[bucksmanuk]

arfursleep said:

120 days is standard in big industry. They normally demand payment in 60 days from their customers and "bank" the money for 60 days.

had one customer tell me that directly that was they did and he saw no problem with it...so i bumped the cost up by 5%

Yep
A previous place of employment had a gas turbine manufacturer based in Northern Italy demand 180 days – they were told where they could stick it… they compromised at 90…

There are people here at work know of Carillion, like others, not much sympathy for them…

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

fesuvious said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Yipper said:

Instead, the Brits have just gone "f*ck It, they're just some scummy builders who don't wear a shiny white office shirt like me".

I was thinking you sometimes get unnecessary stick...

.....but now I think I agree with everybody else

The guy is a complete nipple.

..queue somebody to point out a nipple has uses

[frankenstein12]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

fesuvious said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Yipper said:

Instead, the Brits have just gone "f*ck It, they're just some scummy builders who don't wear a shiny white office shirt like me".

I was thinking you sometimes get unnecessary stick...

.....but now I think I agree with everybody else

The guy is a complete nipple.

..queue somebody to point out a nipple has uses

Apart from his comment about the british he was not far off the money unfortunately.

The core issue with a lot of these companies is underbidding to win contracts. The company I have worked for for years does mostly public sector service providing and i was once told by one of the companies most senior bid managers he did not care if the pilot we were bidding on lost money as there was the potential to gain a much much larger project off the back of winning the pilot scheme.

He did not seem in the least bit worried about what the companies potential losses could end up being on the project.

I personally thought maybe he had lost his fking mind. Apparently the thinking is common across all sectors and most businesses. It also does not help when you have chronic mismanagement stopping PMs from being able to claw back from losses to break even or even possibly minor profit by implementing ridiculous modern business management policies and bureaucracy

Another issue I have seen within the company I work for who were bought out by a global multi billion pound investment group a few years ago who then decided to implement their own company policies without any considering for how the company actually works or what had made it successful to begin with.

In our case we are a reactive company so we had our own stores department so we could send supplies immediately rather than worrying about trying to get supplies from suppliers. We had a fast track system to get financial approvals now we have a system that can take days to get equipment and approvals.

and it goes on and on and on.

Sadly its simply indicative of what I consider to be modern business management trained people who are utterly ingrained into what they were taught at university and unable to think logically or for themselves.

I have through my work had experience of Carillion and am rather ambivalent. I got the impression they like so many companies are much more interested in paperwork and ticking boxes than in doing any of the work they actually contracted to do.

As a PM I cannot understand this modernist Prince/PMP/Agile methodology whereby you are expected or are taught to waste large amounts of time writing up documentation for how to manage a project or expecting your staff on the project to spend vast amounts of time reading documentation you have created telling them how to do their jobs which they are meant to know how to do themselves and ticking silly paperwork boxes taking away large amounts of time when the actual project work could be being undertaken.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Monday 15th January 20:06

[citizensm1th]

A company i do some work with is owed at least 1/2 a million by carilion, and that was just a quick look at the accounts it could be much more.

[Rovinghawk]

frankenstein12 said:

he did not care if the pilot we were bidding on lost money as there was the potential to gain a much much larger project off the back of winning the pilot scheme.

He did not seem in the least bit worried about what the companies potential losses could end up being on the project.

I've had this argument- the response is basically "Yes, we'll lose money but we'll get to know the client & they'll love us so much they'll accept us raising our rates by 30-40% on the next job." Madness.

frankenstein12 said:

I have through my work had experience of Carillion and am rather ambivalent. I got the impression they like so many companies are much more interested in paperwork and ticking boxes than in doing any of the work they actually contracted to do.

I cannot understand .........expecting your staff on the project to spend vast amounts of time reading documentation you have created telling them how to do their jobs which they are meant to know how to do themselves and ticking silly paperwork boxes taking away large amounts of time when the actual project work could be being undertaken.

Forget it just being an impression- having worked with them a lot, this is exactly what they do. Lots of people who can write procedures and almost none who understand construction.

Edited by Rovinghawk on Monday 15th January 20:22

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

citizensm1th said:

A company i do some work with is owed at least 1/2 a million by carilion, and that was just a quick look at the accounts it could be much more.

Yikes. I hope they have deep pockets

[citizensm1th]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

citizensm1th said:

A company i do some work with is owed at least 1/2 a million by carilion, and that was just a quick look at the accounts it could be much more.

Yikes. I hope they have deep pockets

Thankfully yes, they are a massive multinational. carilion had roughly 25 seperate accounts with them (different divisions of carilion each having an account).

I think in the grand scheme of things they will be one of the least affected companies carilion owe.

[crankedup]

frankenstein12 said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

fesuvious said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Yipper said:

Instead, the Brits have just gone "f*ck It, they're just some scummy builders who don't wear a shiny white office shirt like me".

I was thinking you sometimes get unnecessary stick...

.....but now I think I agree with everybody else

The guy is a complete nipple.

..queue somebody to point out a nipple has uses

Apart from his comment about the british he was not far off the money unfortunately.

The core issue with a lot of these companies is underbidding to win contracts. The company I have worked for for years does mostly public sector service providing and i was once told by one of the companies most senior bid managers he did not care if the pilot we were bidding on lost money as there was the potential to gain a much much larger project off the back of winning the pilot scheme.

He did not seem in the least bit worried about what the companies potential losses could end up being on the project.

I personally thought maybe he had lost his fking mind. Apparently the thinking is common across all sectors and most businesses. It also does not help when you have chronic mismanagement stopping PMs from being able to claw back from losses to break even or even possibly minor profit by implementing ridiculous modern business management policies and bureaucracy

Another issue I have seen within the company I work for who were bought out by a global multi billion pound investment group a few years ago who then decided to implement their own company policies without any considering for how the company actually works or what had made it successful to begin with.

In our case we are a reactive company so we had our own stores department so we could send supplies immediately rather than worrying about trying to get supplies from suppliers. We had a fast track system to get financial approvals now we have a system that can take days to get equipment and approvals.

and it goes on and on and on.

Sadly its simply indicative of what I consider to be modern business management trained people who are utterly ingrained into what they were taught at university and unable to think logically or for themselves.

I have through my work had experience of Carillion and am rather ambivalent. I got the impression they like so many companies are much more interested in paperwork and ticking boxes than in doing any of the work they actually contracted to do.

As a PM I cannot understand this modernist Prince/PMP/Agile methodology whereby you are expected or are taught to waste large amounts of time writing up documentation for how to manage a project or expecting your staff on the project to spend vast amounts of time reading documentation you have created telling them how to do their jobs which they are meant to know how to do themselves and ticking silly paperwork boxes taking away large amounts of time when the actual project work could be being undertaken.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Monday 15th January 20:06

As in the 2008 financial crash, much will be written for future students education. And in this case how not to run a business, no matter what your size of business might be. Arrogance is a word which comes to my mind.

[MartG]