Carrilion in trouble

[frankenstein12]

Digga said:

frankenstein12 said:

They accepted our bid and we attended site and carried out the job. They then turned around and got very uppity and stated that we had not installed the right amount of sockets and demanded we install the ones we had "missed". We pointed out that we had stated how many were to be installed on the bid proposal and they then went quiet and said they would get back to us.

When they got back to us they stated they hadn't read the proposal previously they had simply looked at the cost and asked if we could install the extras while on site.

I have become aware its quite common.

I've heard of exactly this happening on other types of contract too.

V8 Fettler said:

The customer shouldn't have to go through a tender with a fine-toothed comb to identify non-compliances.

I don't think that's what he's implying, more that were there a discrepancy, the bid stage is the time to identify it. Putting it the other way around, how would the client check compliance other than by reference to the (same) bid specification?

Correct. The onus is on both parties to make sure the agreed contract is correct. It is up to the client to check the final contract before accepting it and requesting we carry out work. If we make a mistake and the client misses it unfortunately the client is at fault and does not have a legal leg to stand on.

That said we rarely ever make mistakes and sometimes if we feel a mistake was made either by us or the client and we can help them out by rectifying it at very minimal cost to ourselves (in other words we wont quibble over £10 or £20) then we will do so.

Unfortunately its becoming rarer for us to go out of our way to help our customers as we get very little appreciation for doing so.

I was once accused by a customer of trying to increase my profits for suggesting they put in a redundancy as doing so as part of the original project would have cost them literally around £50 in materials against the original project cost of around £15k.

If they had later found they needed the redundancy it would have cost them another £15k to have it installed.

[Sa Calobra]

matchmaker said:

My experience, in the Civil Service, was of a member of staff who was so monumentally useless that he was promoted, as there was no other way to get him out of the office and into a different one. Regrettably, I was amongst the staff who had to put up with the fat, useless waste of space in his new promoted position. He was also my line manager, unfortunately. Nicknamed FLUB - Fat, Lazy, Useless bd.

Probably also approving contracts too.

[V8 Fettler]

frankenstein12 said:

Digga said:

frankenstein12 said:

They accepted our bid and we attended site and carried out the job. They then turned around and got very uppity and stated that we had not installed the right amount of sockets and demanded we install the ones we had "missed". We pointed out that we had stated how many were to be installed on the bid proposal and they then went quiet and said they would get back to us.

When they got back to us they stated they hadn't read the proposal previously they had simply looked at the cost and asked if we could install the extras while on site.

I have become aware its quite common.

I've heard of exactly this happening on other types of contract too.

V8 Fettler said:

The customer shouldn't have to go through a tender with a fine-toothed comb to identify non-compliances.

I don't think that's what he's implying, more that were there a discrepancy, the bid stage is the time to identify it. Putting it the other way around, how would the client check compliance other than by reference to the (same) bid specification?

Correct. The onus is on both parties to make sure the agreed contract is correct. It is up to the client to check the final contract before accepting it and requesting we carry out work. If we make a mistake and the client misses it unfortunately the client is at fault and does not have a legal leg to stand on.

That said we rarely ever make mistakes and sometimes if we feel a mistake was made either by us or the client and we can help them out by rectifying it at very minimal cost to ourselves (in other words we wont quibble over £10 or £20) then we will do so.

Unfortunately its becoming rarer for us to go out of our way to help our customers as we get very little appreciation for doing so.

I was once accused by a customer of trying to increase my profits for suggesting they put in a redundancy as doing so as part of the original project would have cost them literally around £50 in materials against the original project cost of around £15k.

If they had later found they needed the redundancy it would have cost them another £15k to have it installed.

The "final" contract? Do you mean the contract specified by the customer within the invitation to tender?

If the contractor makes a mistake it somehow becomes the customer's responsibility?

£10 or £20? Have you missed out a couple of zeros?

Is not the fact that you get paid sufficient appreciation?

[crankedup]

Sa Calobra said:

matchmaker said:

My experience, in the Civil Service, was of a member of staff who was so monumentally useless that he was promoted, as there was no other way to get him out of the office and into a different one. Regrettably, I was amongst the staff who had to put up with the fat, useless waste of space in his new promoted position. He was also my line manager, unfortunately. Nicknamed FLUB - Fat, Lazy, Useless bd.

Probably also approving contracts too.

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

[Dr Jekyll]

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

[SystemParanoia]

Dr Jekyll said:

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

£600k+ bonuses to the bosses... pockets well lined imho

[Randy Winkman]

SystemParanoia said:

Dr Jekyll said:

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

£600k+ bonuses to the bosses... pockets well lined imho

Exactly - why should they care if the company goes bust?

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

Randy Winkman said:

SystemParanoia said:

Dr Jekyll said:

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

£600k+ bonuses to the bosses... pockets well lined imho

Exactly - why should they care if the company goes bust?

Because their wages will stop?

[SystemParanoia]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Randy Winkman said:

SystemParanoia said:

Dr Jekyll said:

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

£600k+ bonuses to the bosses... pockets well lined imho

Exactly - why should they care if the company goes bust?

Because their wages will stop?

£600k is more than 30 years wages for me...

im sure they'll be fine

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

SystemParanoia said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Randy Winkman said:

SystemParanoia said:

Dr Jekyll said:

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

£600k+ bonuses to the bosses... pockets well lined imho

Exactly - why should they care if the company goes bust?

Because their wages will stop?

£600k is more than 30 years wages for me...

im sure they'll be fine

That wasn't the question

[frankenstein12]

V8 Fettler said:

frankenstein12 said:

Digga said:

frankenstein12 said:

They accepted our bid and we attended site and carried out the job. They then turned around and got very uppity and stated that we had not installed the right amount of sockets and demanded we install the ones we had "missed". We pointed out that we had stated how many were to be installed on the bid proposal and they then went quiet and said they would get back to us.

When they got back to us they stated they hadn't read the proposal previously they had simply looked at the cost and asked if we could install the extras while on site.

I have become aware its quite common.

I've heard of exactly this happening on other types of contract too.

V8 Fettler said:

The customer shouldn't have to go through a tender with a fine-toothed comb to identify non-compliances.

I don't think that's what he's implying, more that were there a discrepancy, the bid stage is the time to identify it. Putting it the other way around, how would the client check compliance other than by reference to the (same) bid specification?

Correct. The onus is on both parties to make sure the agreed contract is correct. It is up to the client to check the final contract before accepting it and requesting we carry out work. If we make a mistake and the client misses it unfortunately the client is at fault and does not have a legal leg to stand on.

That said we rarely ever make mistakes and sometimes if we feel a mistake was made either by us or the client and we can help them out by rectifying it at very minimal cost to ourselves (in other words we wont quibble over £10 or £20) then we will do so.

Unfortunately its becoming rarer for us to go out of our way to help our customers as we get very little appreciation for doing so.

I was once accused by a customer of trying to increase my profits for suggesting they put in a redundancy as doing so as part of the original project would have cost them literally around £50 in materials against the original project cost of around £15k.

If they had later found they needed the redundancy it would have cost them another £15k to have it installed.

The "final" contract? Do you mean the contract specified by the customer within the invitation to tender?

If the contractor makes a mistake it somehow becomes the customer's responsibility?

£10 or £20? Have you missed out a couple of zeros?

Is not the fact that you get paid sufficient appreciation?

No as our customers do not write the contracts we do.

Its not as simple as I make it sound as there are a great many factors taken into account in each case but by and large if a client accepts our proposal they have little leeway to argue we are not fulfilling our obligation.

The £10 or £20 is more a case of if the client claims we made a mistake and we cannot be bothered to argue as the cost to us isnt worth arguing blame or if they are a good client and they call to ask us to carry out a survey for additions which they missed then we will do them a favour as the cost to us isnt worth the hassle of organising another survey and creating a new proposal, getting it approved, organising resources, materials etc.

However attitude and courtesy is very important. So we have some customers who are always difficult. If they ask for favours they wont get any or try blame us for things we will fight them on it because we see no reason to be helpful back.

Whereas we have other customers who are always nothing but helpful and who work with us to make their lives and ours as easy as possible If they feel we have made a mistake we are more inclined to accept we have done so and to work with them to rectify it and likewise if they ask us for help with something we are more willing to help.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Saturday 20th January 00:04

[V8 Fettler]

frankenstein12 said:

V8 Fettler said:

frankenstein12 said:

Digga said:

frankenstein12 said:

They accepted our bid and we attended site and carried out the job. They then turned around and got very uppity and stated that we had not installed the right amount of sockets and demanded we install the ones we had "missed". We pointed out that we had stated how many were to be installed on the bid proposal and they then went quiet and said they would get back to us.

When they got back to us they stated they hadn't read the proposal previously they had simply looked at the cost and asked if we could install the extras while on site.

I have become aware its quite common.

I've heard of exactly this happening on other types of contract too.

V8 Fettler said:

The customer shouldn't have to go through a tender with a fine-toothed comb to identify non-compliances.

I don't think that's what he's implying, more that were there a discrepancy, the bid stage is the time to identify it. Putting it the other way around, how would the client check compliance other than by reference to the (same) bid specification?

Correct. The onus is on both parties to make sure the agreed contract is correct. It is up to the client to check the final contract before accepting it and requesting we carry out work. If we make a mistake and the client misses it unfortunately the client is at fault and does not have a legal leg to stand on.

That said we rarely ever make mistakes and sometimes if we feel a mistake was made either by us or the client and we can help them out by rectifying it at very minimal cost to ourselves (in other words we wont quibble over £10 or £20) then we will do so.

Unfortunately its becoming rarer for us to go out of our way to help our customers as we get very little appreciation for doing so.

I was once accused by a customer of trying to increase my profits for suggesting they put in a redundancy as doing so as part of the original project would have cost them literally around £50 in materials against the original project cost of around £15k.

If they had later found they needed the redundancy it would have cost them another £15k to have it installed.

The "final" contract? Do you mean the contract specified by the customer within the invitation to tender?

If the contractor makes a mistake it somehow becomes the customer's responsibility?

£10 or £20? Have you missed out a couple of zeros?

Is not the fact that you get paid sufficient appreciation?

No as our customers do not write the contracts we do.

Its not as simple as I make it sound as there are a great many factors taken into account in each case but by and large if a client accepts our proposal they have little leeway to argue we are not fulfilling our obligation.

The £10 or £20 is more a case of if the client claims we made a mistake and we cannot be bothered to argue as the cost to us isnt worth arguing blame or if they are a good client and they call to ask us to carry out a survey for additions which they missed then we will do them a favour as the cost to us isnt worth the hassle of organising another survey and creating a new proposal, getting it approved, organising resources, materials etc.

However attitude and courtesy is very important. So we have some customers who are always difficult. If they ask for favours they wont get any or try blame us for things we will fight them on it because we see no reason to be helpful back.

Whereas we have other customers who are always nothing but helpful and who work with us to make their lives and ours as easy as possible If they feel we have made a mistake we are more inclined to accept we have done so and to work with them to rectify it and likewise if they ask us for help with something we are more willing to help.

Edited by frankenstein12 on Saturday 20th January 00:04

The contractor writes the contract? Easy pickings! "If, in the opinion of the contractor" etc. Is this domestic work?

[BrabusMog]

I don't see the issue with who writes the contract? As long as everyone reads, understands and agrees, who cares who writes it? We usually prefer it when our suppliers write the terms out and we have our solicitor check it over and tell us if we need to request any amendments.

[wc98]

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Because their wages will stop?

they should, permanently. unfortunately these parasites will turn up somewhere else on the same gig and quite probably do the same again.

[2 sMoKiN bArReLs]

wc98 said:

2 sMoKiN bArReLs said:

Because their wages will stop?

they should, permanently. unfortunately these parasites will turn up somewhere else on the same gig and quite probably do the same again.

True

[crankedup]

Dr Jekyll said:

crankedup said:

Blame the ststorm on whoever you care to pick then! Point is that carillion were a sthole of a company that shafted thousands of good SME and individuals whilst lining thier own pockets.

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

Problem I aand many others have with this particular Company was the low cost approach, fair enough, but then screw over all of the stubbiest for every single penny possible in every conceivable method. You obviously were not one of the subbies who got screwed or knew any, in a personal sense, who were victims.
That is not how Capitalism should be working.

Edited by crankedup on Saturday 20th January 10:27

[popeyewhite]

Dr Jekyll said:

Typical capitalist plot, lining their pockets by making such small margins they went bust.

Lining their pockets and those of the shareholders while getting deeper into debt and not paying their bills. You think that's capitalism?

[ClaphamGT3]

Anyone who has been involved in closing a major construction contract or a PFI/PPP deal will know that it is a lengthy process with legal, technical and financial advisors retained by each party. It's not like a pro-form a set of T&C's used for a small (under £10m) project. The idea that either party entered into the sort of contracts that Carillon undertook uninformed about risk and contract terms is risible

[popeyewhite]

ClaphamGT3 said:

. The idea that either party entered into the sort of contracts that Carillon undertook uninformed about risk and contract terms is risible

The small firms that Carillion owes the odd £million to and are now going bust/laying off workers knew they'd not get paid while Carillion bosses and shareholders got rewarded? What's risible is how anyone can try to explain that as acceptable. Fortunately most don't see it that way.

[Dr Jekyll]

popeyewhite said:

Lining their pockets and those of the shareholders while getting deeper into debt and not paying their bills. You think that's capitalism?

The shareholders lost out when the firm went bust, that's exactly how it's supposed to work.

Suppose it had been state owned, what would have been different?
Higher profit margins to give themselves a buffer?
Or would the govt have been obliged to bail them out?