Carrilion in trouble

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wc98 said:

crankedup said:

I was referring to carillion, that is the thread subject.

as i said before, it appears the industry operates on the basis of what shareholders (or more correctly those acting for them) and senior management can screw out of the company for as long as possible until it goes tits up. move on, rinse and repeat. can be the only way when people in the industry admit the margins are not there to run a proper business.

i wonder who the fault of the low margins is ?

Indeed, and talk of a broken model will almost certainly amount to zero action or change, Bloody depressing.

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CABC said:

Brave Fart said:

Yipper said:

Doubt it. They'll sweep it under the carpet.

The top directors and top auditors should really be charged with fraud (or similar) and have their day in court for financial terrorism.

What? What exactly is a "top" director, or auditor? If you mean KPMG (the auditor of Carillion), what on earth makes you think they have been fraudulent? What does "or similar" even mean? "Financial terrorism", WTF?
Honestly, Yipper, you don't half post some weird stuff.

Have a close look at the published accounts for 2016 (the last available) and tell me why you think KPMG are guilty of "fraud or similar".

troubles like this typically go back years. I suspect deeper investigation actually would find directorial malfeasance and at the very least, complicity by the auditors. This may not be Enron, but to think that published accounts do not frequently conceal inconvenient truths is misguided.

Smaller scale, Tesco.

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Digga said:

Interesting and comprehensive industry take on the matter here: http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/br...

Obviously editor is an old chum, or so you might think.

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Digga said:

Interesting and comprehensive industry take on the matter here: http://www.theconstructionindex.co.uk/news/view/br...

Obviously editor is an old chum, or so you might think.

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eccles said:

crankedup said:

wc98 said:

crankedup said:

I was referring to carillion, that is the thread subject.

as i said before, it appears the industry operates on the basis of what shareholders (or more correctly those acting for them) and senior management can screw out of the company for as long as possible until it goes tits up. move on, rinse and repeat. can be the only way when people in the industry admit the margins are not there to run a proper business.

i wonder who the fault of the low margins is ?

Indeed, and talk of a broken model will almost certainly amount to zero action or change, Bloody depressing.

They are making noises about protecting company pensions off the back of this. Not sure it'll amount to anything though knowing this lot.

Thought the Government had already set up a system of pensions protection, 85% from the protection if a company goes bust ?

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CABC said:

crankedup said:

Thought the Government had already set up a system of pensions protection, 85% from the protection if a company goes bust ?

think they mean protect from director abuse. government protection means you and me pay...

Yes now that you mention that I recall hearing some muttering about this on the news. In essence I hope it will at long last bring some tough legislation and penalties for wrong doing. No doubt the Coorate Lawyers are already licking their lips at the prospect of some juicy court cases of the future

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CharlieH89 said:

Some staff to stay on with an agreement being made between some companies and PWC who are acting on behalf of the official receivers.

Good news that KIER is hiring former carillion workers. Not surprising, the work that was under carillion contracts still has to be completed, but good news for the workforce.

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Welshbeef said:

Cyder said:

my missus is a buyer for another firm on a JV with Carillion and has also said that all Carillion staff are being kept on with their employment transferred to one of the other companies involved in the JV.

It will be interesting to see what is/are the toxic contracts left at the end how many of them there are and how many are public sector screwing/race to the bottom cost only focus

Yup, worst of both sides, Public Sector wants cheapest product regardless of the fact that we are screwed over through the ‘extras’.
Private sector Boards screwing over workers pensions whilst self rewarding on the sinking ship.
Wonderful.

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Candle at both ends?
No wonder the workers in the private sector are cheesed off.

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Rovinghawk said:

This is the Carillion thread- Capita thread is HERE:

https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...

Thank you. And I got derided for the teremity to open the carillion thread! Still at least I got to learn how to spell it, it’s the important things that count in PH (not aimed at you btw)

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Government announce that they will back loans to businesses, through the banks. Good that some of those businesses affected by the collapse of Carillion will be able to keep thier cash flow going and save many from liquidation.
Raises more questions of course, tax payer money stepping into shoring up private businesses, albeit loans.

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bristolracer said:

crankedup said:

Government announce that they will back loans to businesses, through the banks. Good that some of those businesses affected by the collapse of Carillion will be able to keep thier cash flow going and save many from liquidation.
Raises more questions of course, tax payer money stepping into shoring up private businesses, albeit loans.

Yep because they are all running over the hill to help me after a satellite contractor went bust last year owing me 2 grand and another builder went under owing another grand.

Oh I can’t quite hear the cavalry coming.......

The ups and downs of running a business. Win some / lose some, stuff like this is factored into business.

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Bosses in front of a Parliamentary Select Committee today, usual staff from the Board.
No we were not asleep at the wheel.
We are sorry this has happened.

Still at least we were spared the other great line ‘lessons will be learned’

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cossy400 said:

crankedup said:

Bosses in front of a Parliamentary Select Committee today, usual staff from the Board.
No we were not asleep at the wheel.
We are sorry this has happened.

Still at least we were spared the other great line ‘lessons will be learned’

it 'll come don't you worry, thing is they in that meeting won't really care as they are still going to get there money.

As there is no sanctions in place.

Think the official receiver is looking into the question of those payments to the Board. Equating that the Board should have been aware that the business was in serious financial difficulty and yet they continued paying out huge dividends, not to mention thier own salaries and bonuses.
I don’t know how far the official receiver is permitted to claw back money in situations such as this?

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Camoradi said:

crankedup said:

Bosses in front of a Parliamentary Select Committee today, usual staff from the Board.
No we were not asleep at the wheel.
We are sorry this has happened.

Still at least we were spared the other great line ‘lessons will be learned’

Watched a bit of that. I'm not sure what is more appalling, the directors just waiting for the politicians to finish so they can get back to their mansions, or the politicians seizing the opportunity to grandstand in front of their supporters. Rachel Reeves was particularly odious today with her sarcastic "well done" to the finance director.

Indeed, as is oft said ‘sarcasm is the lowest form of wit’ and use of it in such a situation is not helpful at all. The calibre of the Select Committee is poor,

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Trophy Husband said:

crankedup said:

bristolracer said:

crankedup said:

Government announce that they will back loans to businesses, through the banks. Good that some of those businesses affected by the collapse of Carillion will be able to keep thier cash flow going and save many from liquidation.
Raises more questions of course, tax payer money stepping into shoring up private businesses, albeit loans.

Yep because they are all running over the hill to help me after a satellite contractor went bust last year owing me 2 grand and another builder went under owing another grand.

Oh I can’t quite hear the cavalry coming.......

The ups and downs of running a business. Win some / lose some, stuff like this is factored into business.

Is it? Not my business which is civil engineering and groundworks. I price a job to complete the job and get paid for it. The secret is to do thorough checks of the business for whom you are providing a service and get paid on YOUR terms not theirs. Would I have tendered a package for Carillion in the recent past? Er, no. It has been as plain on the nose of my face that they were fubarred a long time ago.

We came within an hour of taking a £50k hit 2 years ago. A deep credit search of our client revealed a phoenix director of immoral proportions. Luckily I had the ear of the end user of the building and filled him in on what I had found. It just happened that he was about to release a payment of north of £100k to the principal contractor, £50k of which was destined to be paid to us. At that point in time it would have either finished us or put us on our knees at best.

When I read that he poster had gone to the wall for 1k and a pal for 2k TBH my assumption was that the two businesses were likely to be one or two man businesses. From that I saw, perhaps wrongly, that they had debtors who had not paid for work. Difficult to assess the likely hood of a bad payer at that level. Hence my remark, ups and downs of running a business, I should have inserted ‘very small ‘ perhaps.

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REALIST123 said:

crankedup said:

Bosses in front of a Parliamentary Select Committee today, usual staff from the Board.
No we were not asleep at the wheel.
We are sorry this has happened.

Still at least we were spared the other great line ‘lessons will be learned’

One might take it slightly seriously if the inquisitors were not representative of a group that could truly be characterised as ‘sleeping on the job’ and accused of lining their pockets at the expense of others.

If anyone should be apologising it’s them. Regularly.

Do you believe that the Board of Directors of Carillion ran the business in a sustainable way for future long term growth?

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^^^^^
KPMG were the auditors for Carillion who are currently under investigation which will discover how they found the business to be in good financial shape.

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frankenstein12 said:

crankedup said:

^^^^^
KPMG were the auditors for Carillion who are currently under investigation which will discover how they found the business to be in good financial shape.

KPMG are in it up to their necks and are going to end up going bust i suspect in the end... They are rapidly becoming pariahs and losing customers due to their bad practices.

https://www.ft.com/content/c525699e-a6a5-11e7-ab55...

Yes I understand that they have cast thier eyes over the numbers of several large Companies and come up with suspect conclusions.
Nothing like a disaster to reveal what’s behind each one!

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^^^^
Didn’t realise that TBH, as you say it’s not good for thier image. Would I employ them to cast over my books, no way. (haven’t got any books nowadays).