How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)

[The Dangerous Elk]

sidicks said:

Robertj21a said:

From the various posts/rants from ///ajd today I reckon he has:-

- asked 165 questions
- answered 3 questions
- deflected 74 issues that he didn't like
- put words in other people's mouths 39 times
- referred to the Guardian/charts/experts on 48 occasions.....



NB. Like much of the data from ///ajd these statistics may not be totally true...

[drainbrain]

Leaving the EU may not be the only solution to the problems uncontrolled immigration brings.

[anonymous-user]

sidicks said:

Ghibli said:

Which group would that be ? The leave the EU group which had lots of promises we have yet to see.

No, the group that speaks English and is able to move beyond a pure literal interpretation of the words used in a simple sentence.

For the avoidance of doubt, when I said I wanted free trade with Europe, I wasn't speaking solely about me personally then either, I was talking about the Country as a whole. I'm sure that everyone else understood this, but given your confusion above, I thought I'd better spell it out for you!

I thought you were talking about immigration. Perhaps you should read back.

[sidicks]

Ghibli said:

I thought you were talking about immigration. Perhaps you should read back.

So you don't understand the sarcasm in my previous post either?

And they claim it was the Leavers that were the thick ones...

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

There used to be no FoM in the EU area too - but it was introduced.

Why was it introduced?

FYI ajd, I and others and no doubt yourself can see both the “banter” side of this debate along with the more serious moral viewpoints, referencing “oh look squirrel” in order to infer that someone who doesn’t agree with you has ADHD is pretty poor form fella. Just saying.

[Tuna]

///ajd said:

No, I'm not worried, plenty of skills and I've landed several jobs against international competition in the past and had a great experience living abroad. I know you tried and failed to live and work abroad - but keep trying, its worth it.

Fairly typical of the smug "I'm alright Jack" attitude we get on here, and not unusually assuming the "other side's" position into the bargain.

Breadvan touched on this earlier, but assumed the solution had to be more of what we're already doing (because that's going so well, isn't it?).

Why do you guys find it so hard to understand that (1) we're having real problems with infrastructure - housing, NHS, transport (2) some people feel that they want to get our house in order and (3) the last few decades of EU membership has shown very little sympathy in particular for regions that are struggling.

It's amazing - watch last week's Question Time again and listen to how the audience respond - not to the guy who got the headlines, but to the average answers the panellists gave. If you want to 'stop Brexit', or had actually committed to prevent the vote going the way it did, you've got to stop writing other people's opinions off just because you disagree with them. I try to have sympathy for both sides of the argument, but when Remainers pull the "I'm so fking multicultural" card, it just makes me realise how totally they have misunderstood why people are unhappy.

Both sides need to realise that arguing over whether the home counties has too many people washing windscreens is missing the point by a country mile. The people trying to deliver Brexit and the people trying to reverse it need to give people like the QT audience some concrete indications that stuff is going to change. Because, ///ajd, I can promise you that airily suggesting people just move abroad to get a job really, really winds up the average guy who's worried about taxing his car, getting his Dad to hospital or giving his kids a half decent education.

[///ajd]

Tuna said:

Fairly typical of the smug "I'm alright Jack" attitude we get on here, and not unusually assuming the "other side's" position into the bargain.

Breadvan touched on this earlier, but assumed the solution had to be more of what we're already doing (because that's going so well, isn't it?).

Why do you guys find it so hard to understand that (1) we're having real problems with infrastructure - housing, NHS, transport (2) some people feel that they want to get our house in order and (3) the last few decades of EU membership has shown very little sympathy in particular for regions that are struggling.

It's amazing - watch last week's Question Time again and listen to how the audience respond - not to the guy who got the headlines, but to the average answers the panellists gave. If you want to 'stop Brexit', or had actually committed to prevent the vote going the way it did, you've got to stop writing other people's opinions off just because you disagree with them. I try to have sympathy for both sides of the argument, but when Remainers pull the "I'm so fking multicultural" card, it just makes me realise how totally they have misunderstood why people are unhappy.

Both sides need to realise that arguing over whether the home counties has too many people washing windscreens is missing the point by a country mile. The people trying to deliver Brexit and the people trying to reverse it need to give people like the QT audience some concrete indications that stuff is going to change. Because, ///ajd, I can promise you that airily suggesting people just move abroad to get a job really, really winds up the average guy who's worried about taxing his car, getting his Dad to hospital or giving his kids a half decent education.

Can't have it both ways - one minute Sidicks is saying I only want FoM as I'm too thick to get a job abroad, when I suggest that is not the case, I get accused of not caring.

Its interesting you think the QT audience need some concrete indications that stuff is going to change.

What do you think is going to change?

Wages going up? No chance, we're slowing down.
Less immigration? How will that help if it affects the economy?

What we've had so far is inflation and general fkwittery.

I'd agree that those who voted for brexit to make things better are going to be pretty annoyed when things get worse. They need to stop being victims and laming remainers, and blame the the lying brexiteers who offered you much but are going to deliver fck all. They never could.

[frisbee]

sidicks said:

Really? I think you might have missed the results of the latest round of negotiations.

Maybe the problem is that you're under the impression that it's a linear process, failing to understand that negotiations just don't work that way?

Or maybe the problem is I expect some sort of competence from my country's politicians?

What's happened to all the crying and moaning from the Brexiteers about not issuing our notice to leave immediately after the referendum?

Feeble acceptance of incompetence. Lame.

[The Dangerous Elk]

///ajd said:

Can't have it both ways - one minute Sidicks is saying I only want FoM as I'm too thick to get a job abroad, when I suggest that is not the case, I get accused of not caring.

Its interesting you think the QT audience need some concrete indications that stuff is going to change.

What do you think is going to change?

Wages going up? No chance, we're slowing down.
Less immigration? How will that help if it affects the economy?

What we've had so far is inflation and general fkwittery.

I'd agree that those who voted for brexit to make things better are going to be pretty annoyed when things get worse. They need to stop being victims and laming remainers, and blame the the lying brexiteers who offered you much but are going to deliver fck all. They never could.

You have ZERO Data to back any of that up.....priceless

[Funkycoldribena]

///ajd said:

Can't have it both ways - one minute Sidicks is saying I only want FoM as I'm too thick to get a job abroad, when I suggest that is not the case, I get accused of not caring.

Its interesting you think the QT audience need some concrete indications that stuff is going to change.

What do you think is going to change?

Wages going up? No chance, we're slowing down.
Less immigration? How will that help if it affects the economy?

What we've had so far is inflation and general fkwittery.

I'd agree that those who voted for brexit to make things better are going to be pretty annoyed when things get worse. They need to stop being victims and laming remainers, and blame the the lying brexiteers who offered you much but are going to deliver fck all. They never could.

As long as we're not shackled to a money wasting gravy train which runs roughshod over democracy,I'll take the rough with the smooth thank you very much.

[don'tbesilly]

The Dangerous Elk said:

///ajd said:

Can't have it both ways - one minute Sidicks is saying I only want FoM as I'm too thick to get a job abroad, when I suggest that is not the case, I get accused of not caring.

Its interesting you think the QT audience need some concrete indications that stuff is going to change.

What do you think is going to change?

Wages going up? No chance, we're slowing down.
Less immigration? How will that help if it affects the economy?

What we've had so far is inflation and general fkwittery.

I'd agree that those who voted for brexit to make things better are going to be pretty annoyed when things get worse. They need to stop being victims and laming remainers, and blame the the lying brexiteers who offered you much but are going to deliver fck all. They never could.

You have ZERO Data to back any of that up.....priceless

It's worthwhile adding:

///ajd said:

Beautiful, couldn't have hoped for a better response.

Never a truer statement made

[alfie2244]

Robertj21a said:

From the various posts/rants from ///ajd today I reckon he has:-

- asked 165 questions
- answered 3 questions
- deflected 74 issues that he didn't like
- put words in other people's mouths 39 times
- referred to the Guardian/charts/experts on 48 occasions.....



NB. Like much of the data from ///ajd these statistics may not be totally true...

What about the past month?

[///ajd]

The Dangerous Elk said:

You have ZERO Data to back any of that up.....priceless

Plenty of evidence our GDP has dropped behind the EU having being ahead.

Plenty of evidence of inflation, driven by currency, driven by Brexit.

My data is looking OK. Yours.....not so much.

[The Dangerous Elk]

///ajd said:

Plenty of evidence our GDP has dropped behind the EU having being ahead.

Plenty of evidence of inflation, driven by currency, driven by Brexit.

My data is looking OK. Yours.....not so much.

No there is not

No there is not

No it is not, mine is published

[anonymous-user]

///ajd said:

Can't have it both ways - one minute Sidicks is saying I only want FoM as I'm too thick to get a job abroad, when I suggest that is not the case, I get accused of not caring.

I’m sure you do care, and handing out flyers in Ayia Napa is a strong example of FoM. Don’t let anyone tell you otherwise.
Cudos too on yet more guesswork on reasons for people voting brexit and your unfounded assumptions on people’s disappointment based on nothing concrete aside from your speculative thought process. Keep it up chap, it’s a good look.

Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 17th December 19:22

[sidicks]

///ajd said:

Can't have it both ways - one minute Sidicks is saying I only want FoM as I'm too thick to get a job abroad...

More lies ///adj ?

[barryrs]

Mrr T said:

barryrs said:

Brexit voter with no problem with FoM here

Remove in work tax credits and insist on health insurance to be administered by employers and my vote will be satisfied.

Edited by barryrs on Sunday 17th December 15:17

So you want immigrants to pay taxes to support your use of the NHS while having to pay for their own health cover?

I think that makes you a scrounger.

Couldn’t give a monkeys what you think, still nice to see a post without “passporting” in it.

[Rich_W]

///ajd said:

Someone leaver earlier I think suggested that he only really had time for 3 / 20 immigrants working on his site. It was typically vague and I'll be accused of twisting words, but the implication was the others didn't speak English well and were grumpy. This seemed to perhaps suggest he would rather they were not in the country, but of course "he didn't say that" - perhaps he will clarify.

Perhaps you'll open your eyes to others views without constantly being a condescending child!

The 17 in my example (and I think that should be revised to 15/20 ) Quite frankly if they left Id not be concerned. They are making no efforts to integrate to the UK way of life. They (like you) sneer at Brits, despite everyone I work with being as friendly/welcoming as we can be. Why should I put the effort in to be nice when they wont even learn basic English. Why do you always say is it always the Brits who are in the wrong and the migrants are ALL perfect and should be appeased at all times?

///ajd said:

Some are clearly convinced they are a "problem" and that won't be a view that is changed overnight, if ever for some.

The 15 in my example are a problem. Sending money home doesn't benefit our economy. not becoming fluent doesn't aid integration and becomes enforced segregation. They are employed because they will work for nmw, live 5 single males to a rented house (in one case) so don't need to work for more (Hardly helping themselves is it!). Which means of course you don't have to hire locals and pay then the "living wage" (The suppression is real!)

Whereas my ex Gf, her family, moved to the UK to settle long term and improve their lot. They are friendly, integrated, work as hard as the rest of the population. And are a benefit to the UK and our economy since they spend their money here. Its what the 5 in my earlier post are like. They want to become UK citizens. Once the 5 years has passed. More than welcome I say!

ORD said:

Why are people speculating and working from first principle? We KNOW that EU immigrants overall are net contributors. There are studies that show this.

Lets use a simple example a family in my block where I live

He (EE) works a low paid job higher than nmw (roughly £22k)
She doesn't. She did work prior to pregnancy but only for circa 6 months after she entered the UK.
They have a son born here (2yo) They get "in work" benefits for having a child and also for housing from the council like all families (I don't know for sure of any others but there may or may not be)
He is one of those individuals that goes to the local GP if he gets a cold. He's taken the child there numerous times. Then made an official complaint, and bragged on the internet about it, when they pointed out there was nothing wrong with child and wouldn't give him any meds!

On a personal level he's a monumental . Bullied an elderly resident FFS! (and others are clearly wary of him) I have reported him to the Police for riding a bike with 2 different number plates! (Police obviously didn't investigate since it its still happening) His wife speaks virtually no English. Well pretends to, if she doesn't want to respond to complaints

net contributor? Benefit to this country? Don't make me laugh!

The problem with your "facts" is its an average based on all migrants working in decent jobs. Back in 97 this was probably more accurate. The last few years have seen the type of work flip towards low skill jobs. I cant find any figures aren't out of date

barryrs said:

Brexit voter with no problem with FoM here

Remove in work tax credits and insist on health insurance to be administered by employers and my vote will be satisfied.

Like that!

Mrr T said:

So you want immigrants to pay taxes to support your use of the NHS while having to pay for their own health cover?

I think that makes you a scrounger.

He didn't say that. How can you get 2 lines of text so wrong. He expects EMPLOYERS to pay for their health care. Beauty of that is it would mean employers would only be incentivised to bring in good staff. (Banks Drs for example. Since virtually no business would willingly pay extra for a low skill eu migrant if they could simply hire a UK worker for less

powerstroke said:

So after many thousands of posts on the subject of brexit the remainers are more and more slavish to the EU why just why?? money, power the wish to see the UK as a tiny part or some vast faceless empire run by 3rd rate politicians , gravy train riders and spivs?
the more I think about it the less I like the idea of having anything to do with the EU
sad because I love europe as a place and it's peoples ...

Love Europe. Hate the EU

sidicks said:

It is only other countries who can stop free movement for Brits into the EU - I guess that you're worried that you won't be able to work in France on merit, so don't want a system where they can refuse you?

Its something we've touched on before. A fair few of the PH remoaners live outside the UK. So quite why they care what happens to us is bizarre. They were never going to return here anyway.

Ghibli said:

What do you mean by I want to be able to control ? Are you going to be in charge of immigration when we leave.

jesus wept! Did you really just take a 100% literal "understanding" of what he wrote!

Edited by Rich_W on Sunday 17th December 19:35

[///ajd]

Rich_W said:

///ajd said:

Someone leaver earlier I think suggested that he only really had time for 3 / 20 immigrants working on his site. It was typically vague and I'll be accused of twisting words, but the implication was the others didn't speak English well and were grumpy. This seemed to perhaps suggest he would rather they were not in the country, but of course "he didn't say that" - perhaps he will clarify.

Perhaps you'll oen your eyes to others views without constantly being a condescending child!

The 17 in my example (and I think that should be revised to 15/20 ) Quite frankly if they left Id not be concerned. They are making no efforts to integrate to the UK way of life. They (like you) sneer at Brits, despite everyone I work with being as friendly/welcoming as we can be. Why should I put the effort in to be nice when they wont even learn basic English. Why do you always say is it always the Brits who are in the wrong and the migrants are ALL perfect and should be appeased at all times?

///ajd said:

Some are clearly convinced they are a "problem" and that won't be a view that is changed overnight, if ever for some.

The 15 in my example are a problem. Sending money home doesn't benefit our economy. not becoming fluent doesn't aid integration and becomes enforced segregation. They are employed because they will work for nmw, live 5 single males to a rented house (in one case) so will work for nmw. Which means of course you don't have to hire locals and pay then the "living wage" (The suppression is real!)

Whereas my ex Gf, her family, moved to the UK to settle long term and improve their lot. They are friendly, integrated, work as hard as the rest of the population. And are a benefit to the UK and our economy since they spend their money here.

ORD said:

Why are people speculating and working from first principle? We KNOW that EU immigrants overall are net contributors. There are studies that show this.

Lets use a simple example a family in my block where I live

He (EE) works a low paid job higher than nmw (roughly £22k)
She doesn't. She did work prior to pregnancy but only for circa 6 months after she entered the UK.
They have a son born here (2) They get "in work" benefits for having a child and also for housing from the council. (I don't know for sure of any others but there may or may not be)
He is one of those individuals that goes to the local GP if he gets a cold. He's taken the child there numerous times. The made an official complaint when they pointed out there was nothing wrong with child and wouldn't give him any meds!

On a personal level he's a monumental . Bullied an elderly resident FFS! (and others are clearly wary of him) I have reported him to the Police for riding a bike with 2 different number plates! (Police obviously didn't investigate since it its still happening) His wife speaks virtually no English. Well pretends to, if she doesn't want to respond to complaints

net contributor? Benefit to this country? Don't make me laugh!

The problem with your "facts" is its an average based on all migrants working in decent jobs. Back in 97 this was probably more accurate. the last few years have seen the type of work flip towards low skill jobs. the figures are out of date

barryrs said:

Brexit voter with no problem with FoM here

Remove in work tax credits and insist on health insurance to be administered by employers and my vote will be satisfied.

Like that!

Mrr T said:

So you want immigrants to pay taxes to support your use of the NHS while having to pay for their own health cover?

I think that makes you a scrounger.

He didn't say that. How can you get 2 lines of text so wrong. He expects EMPLOYERS to pay for their health care. Beauty of that is it would mean employers would only be incentivised to bring in good staff. Since virtually no business would willingly pay extra for a low skill eu migrant if they could simply hire a UK worker for less

powerstroke said:

So after many thousands of posts on the subject of brexit the remainers are more and more slavish to the EU why just why?? money, power the wish to see the UK as a tiny part or some vast faceless empire run by 3rd rate politicians , gravy train riders and spivs?
the more I think about it the less I like the idea of having anything to do with the EU
sad because I love europe as a place and it's peoples ...

Love Europe. Hate the EU

sidicks said:

It is only other countries who can stop free movement for Brits into the EU - I guess that you're worried that you won't be able to work in France on merit, so don't want a system where they can refuse you?

Its something we've touched on before. A fair few of the PH remoaners live outside the UK. So quite why they care what happens to us is bizarre. They were never going to return here anyway.

Ghibli said:

What do you mean by I want to be able to control ? Are you going to be in charge of immigration when we leave.

jesus wept! Did you really just take a 100% literal "understanding" of what he wrote!

Interesting. So the guy in the flat on £22k with a family are part of the problem?

Is his job not important to the economy? The company he works for I assume think so. Surely he has to spend a lot of that £22k in the UK or he couldn't live and eat etc.

It seems you really don't like him at all. How did he bully the OAP?

Do you think him being EE had a bearing on his behaviour?

Would you like to see someone like him not able to enter the country under the new brexit immigration rules?

[barryrs]

I can feel another “ahah racist” coming.