How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)

[alfie2244]

Coolbanana said:

Brexit means little to nothing for me personally anymore but I will continue to mock daft decisions, just for the heck of it. Sport, ya see.

So says the man who's posts often mimic war and peace.....I know what I would be doing if I was in the Algarve and it wouldn't be sitting at a pc posting about politics on a car forum.

[andymadmak]

Coolbanana said:

The pathetically weak attempts to explain the Bus and spin it as anything other than a bald-faced lie aimed at the naïve and easily-led so as to gain Leave votes rather than an erroneous prediction, is, well, less than convincing to anyone of sound mind, surely? Even all of the Leave Overlords admitted such post Referendum, albeit we now have one of their more blatant Liars feeling there is still mileage in the lie yet for his most ardent of Believers.

I do get the impression many Leavers here are low-to-middle management, "dead-wood" hiding behind the competence of their Colleagues, spunking their failing lives away while stealing their employers time to post inane arguments on here. Is that being too charitable or unfair?
They seem to have voted Leave to address an issue they have with others who always seem to do better than them and so stuff the Establishment, Elite and the EU; unable to acknowledge the reality that is their own laziness and erroneous belief that they are owed a Living.

Cue frothing anger and umbrage at being called out with weak denial...

Hopefully none of the above about Leavers is actually true - so no need to defend yourselves folks as it is probably just the impression given - but it certainly comes across in some of the posts. Bizarre.

Anyway, it is fun to engage with a mindset that very willingly chose to embarrass their Country and bring it down a peg or two in virtually every respect. Brexit means little to nothing for me personally anymore but I will continue to mock daft decisions, just for the heck of it. Sport, ya see.

Ahh the never ending tactics of the small rump that is the bitter Remainers - sneer, mock, write a mildly insulting caricature of what they hope represents a Brexit voter, exit expressing the lofty view of disinterest - only to return another day to froth and insult.

What I find genuinely amazing is that for this small group, everything is sooooo black and white. I say that the bus is a bit ambiguous, so a rump member posts an entirely different image to show I am being disingenuous! I criticise the use of the wrong amount, I criticise the infamous Farage queue poster, in fact I have criticised any number of things about the Leave campaign. And I am not alone in this. Poster after poster has agreed that not everything was done properly, fairly, honestly or accurately.
But, yea gods, trying to get a rump remainer to even acknowledge
the equally despicable tactics used by Remain, the inaccuracies, the exaggerations, the lies, the smears, and many other things is either dismissed out of hand, or swerved by playing the "whataboutery" card.

Come on guys, taking everything into account, do you not see that Remain played a reasonably strong hand incredibly badly? You had just about all the senior figures in the Government (and most in the other credible political parties) , most of the visual media (not including newspapers), a state sponsored leaflet to every household, 40 years of triumphs, an awful tragedy that was milked by elements on your side, and no end of your own spin and story telling - and yet Remain still came second?

You think it came down to a bus, Farage's poster and Xenophobia?
If you truly believe that then you're in for a shock if there ever were to be a second referendum (I doubt if there will be) because if you go about things in the same way, and rely on your bus outrage being transferred to the rest of the population to secure your majority then you are going to lose and by an even bigger margin.

[PurpleMoonlight]

pgh said:

Hear hear!

In fact, trying to get a remain supporter here to concede that the EU isn't just perfect in every way is extremely difficult indeed.

Has anyone said that?

[ORD]

pgh said:

andymadmak said:

What I find genuinely amazing is that for this small group, everything is sooooo black and white. I say that the bus is a bit ambiguous, so a rump member posts an entirely different image to show I am being disingenuous! I criticise the use of the wrong amount, I criticise the infamous Farage queue poster, in fact I have criticised any number of things about the Leave campaign. And I am not alone in this. Poster after poster has agreed that not everything was done properly, fairly, honestly or accurately.
But, yea gods, trying to get a rump remainer to even acknowledge
the equally despicable tactics used by Remain, the inaccuracies, the exaggerations, the lies, the smears, and many other things is either dismissed out of hand, or swerved by playing the "whataboutery" card.

Hear hear!

In fact, trying to get a remain supporter here to concede that the EU isn't just perfect in every way is extremely difficult indeed.

Complete nonsense. I don't know a single poster on here who would not readily accept all the many and serious flaws with the EU.

[Eddie Strohacker]

pgh said:

Hear hear!

In fact, trying to get a remain supporter here to concede that the EU isn't just perfect in every way is extremely difficult indeed.

Is it? I doubt that, but I'm open to evidence.

The difficulty with what Andy thinks is a conciliatory tone is he only ever takes one side of the debate himself. Therefore when his bias is challenged, it's entirely a reasonable thing to do if for example, I believe he's wrong. The proof of the pudding is the follow up responses. All attacks, all personal, all a swing & a miss. There is no meeting of minds, no middle ground, only right & wrong, simple really, leavers are in the wrong & history will judge them to be the vandals who burnt down their house because they didn't like the neighbours.

[Funkycoldribena]

Eddie Strohacker said:

Is it? I doubt that, but I'm open to evidence.

The difficulty with what Andy thinks is a conciliatory tone is he only ever takes one side of the debate himself. Therefore when his bias is challenged, it's entirely a reasonable thing to do if for example, I believe he's wrong. The proof of the pudding is the follow up responses. All attacks, all personal, all a swing & a miss. There is no meeting of minds, no middle ground, only right & wrong, simple really, leavers are in the wrong & history will judge them to be the vandals who burnt down their house because they didn't like the neighbours.

What a bleeding hypocrite.
Stroll on.

[jjlynn27]

andymadmak said:

I say that the bus is a bit ambiguous, so a rump member posts an entirely different image to show I am being disingenuous!

andymadmak said:

I think it is clear that the leave campaign is suggesting that at least some of that £350m should be going to the NHS instead. What is ambiguous is how much of it.

You said "leave campaign", not "the bus". Hence the 'different image'. You are now being dishonest about being disingenuous.

Still entertaining. So thanks.

[andymadmak]

Eddie Strohacker said:

pgh said:

Hear hear!

In fact, trying to get a remain supporter here to concede that the EU isn't just perfect in every way is extremely difficult indeed.

Is it? I doubt that, but I'm open to evidence.

The difficulty with what Andy thinks is a conciliatory tone is he only ever takes one side of the debate himself. Therefore when his bias is challenged, it's entirely a reasonable thing to do if for example, I believe he's wrong. The proof of the pudding is the follow up responses. All attacks, all personal, all a swing & a miss. There is no meeting of minds, no middle ground, only right & wrong, simple really, leavers are in the wrong & history will judge them to be the vandals who burnt down their house because they didn't like the neighbours.

I'll ignore the (inaccurate) personal attack and ask you two genuine questions if I may?

1 Leaving aside for a moment the real issues with the Brexit campaign, what in your opinion were the unacceptable elements of the Remain campaign?

2. Assuming that the first Referendum had never happened, but armed with the knowledge of how badly Remains tactics worked first time out (yes, I am asking you to be a Time Lord! ) how do you think the Remain campaign should have been /be organised
(I'm couching the question like that because I don't want your responses to be based on attacking what Brexit did in Ref1, rather I want to gauge how Remain could have gone about things differently in your opinion.)

If you can answer those two in a constructive way, I promise that I will also answer them, doing my best to take the position of a Remain voter. (which ironically, I could easily have been right up to the last week of the campaign)

[andymadmak]

jjlynn27 said:

andymadmak said:

I say that the bus is a bit ambiguous, so a rump member posts an entirely different image to show I am being disingenuous!

andymadmak said:

I think it is clear that the leave campaign is suggesting that at least some of that £350m should be going to the NHS instead. What is ambiguous is how much of it.

You said "leave campaign", not "the bus". Hence the 'different image'. You are now being dishonest about being disingenuous.

Still entertaining. So thanks.

Not dishonest, the context of my comments was relating to the bus. I am sorry if that was not clear. You may (or may not) be surprised to know that i had not seen that Liam Fox picture before either. Taken in THAT context though I entirely see your point about that part of the campaign.

[dandarez]

andymadmak said:

Eddie Strohacker said:

pgh said:

Hear hear!

In fact, trying to get a remain supporter here to concede that the EU isn't just perfect in every way is extremely difficult indeed.

Is it? I doubt that, but I'm open to evidence.

The difficulty with what Andy thinks is a conciliatory tone is he only ever takes one side of the debate himself. Therefore when his bias is challenged, it's entirely a reasonable thing to do if for example, I believe he's wrong. The proof of the pudding is the follow up responses. All attacks, all personal, all a swing & a miss. There is no meeting of minds, no middle ground, only right & wrong, simple really, leavers are in the wrong & history will judge them to be the vandals who burnt down their house because they didn't like the neighbours.

I'll ignore the (inaccurate) personal attack and ask you two genuine questions if I may?

1 Leaving aside for a moment the real issues with the Brexit campaign, what in your opinion were the unacceptable elements of the Remain campaign?

2. Assuming that the first Referendum had never happened, but armed with the knowledge of how badly Remains tactics worked first time out (yes, I am asking you to be a Time Lord! ) how do you think the Remain campaign should have been /be organised
(I'm couching the question like that because I don't want your responses to be based on attacking what Brexit did in Ref1, rather I want to gauge how Remain could have gone about things differently in your opinion.)

If you can answer those two in a constructive way, I promise that I will also answer them, doing my best to take the position of a Remain voter. (which ironically, I could easily have been right up to the last week of the campaign)

Just to keep things accurate, it was the 'second' Referendum.
You know how some will believe anything they on here!
The 'first' was in 1975, I know, I voted the wrong way back then. Didn't jump up and down though like today's moaners. Calmly got on with life. How different to today.

[mx5nut]

dandarez said:

The 'first' was in 1975, I know, I voted the wrong way back then. Didn't jump up and down though like today's moaners. Calmly got on with life. How different to today.

If only the rest of the anti EU mob had done the same instead of spending 40 years moaning and talking the country down!

[alfie2244]

mx5nut said:

dandarez said:

The 'first' was in 1975, I know, I voted the wrong way back then. Didn't jump up and down though like today's moaners. Calmly got on with life. How different to today.

If only the rest of the anti EU mob had done the same instead of spending 40 years moaning and talking the country down!

I was too young would you believe so it was my 1st ever vote in 40 yrs.. perhaps not as old as JJ would like to think

But I do confess to spending many years moaning about the EU and talking the UK up and was even a member of the referendum party before anyone had even heard of Farage.

Edited by alfie2244 on Friday 19th January 13:07

Edited by alfie2244 on Friday 19th January 13:07

[anonymous-user]

Ghibli said:

Portillo has only made a comment about Osborne which is great news for daily express types.

Are you saying that Osborne's predictions were made solely on the vote itself and not any further. Were they not connected to when we actually leave?

Did you not read my post and watch the video that shows what Osborne said about the immediate impact of voting leave?
You can't have done to type that, unless you are incapable of understanding basic English text and speech.

[jjlynn27]

andymadmak said:

Not dishonest, the context of my comments was relating to the bus. I am sorry if that was not clear. You may (or may not) be surprised to know that i had not seen that Liam Fox picture before either. Taken in THAT context though I entirely see your point about that part of the campaign.

I think I get it. When you type leave campaign, you were 'clearly' not referring to leave campaign, but to the message on the bus.


Think I'll call you Chemical Andy.

[Crackie]

Eddie Strohacker said:

Funkycoldribena said:

What a bleeding hypocrite.
Stroll on.

Better that than a racist.

Wow, I Agree with you 100% Eddie .........but you are a hypocrtite.

[jjlynn27]

Crackie said:

Wow, I Agree with you 100% Eddie .........but you are a hypocrtite.

Don't you just hate it when bad things happen to good lines?

[anonymous-user]

captain_cynic said:

Hmmm...
Pound immediately dropped by at least 15% against all major currencies and has continued to fall against most of them... Check No it hasnt, GBP has been gaining ground against world currencies for a year
House prices stagnating... Check Nope, still going up
CPI decreasing... Check isnt that what you want?
House prices stagnating... Check nothing has changed from 2 lines ago
Inflation risen to near six year high... Check. which has been too low and below the BOE target of 2%, it has started to fall back towards target now the initial impact has been fed into the system

Seems more has come true and if you cant see how bills have risen in the last 18 months you've got weapons grade denial going on... And we haven't even left the EU yet. Inflation and the pound falling whilst we have record production, if you think that's a good economy, I don't wan't to know what you think a bad one looks like. the GBP has been gaining ground significantly since its initial fall, the only currency that has gained recently is the Euro, because of a long awaited recovery in the Eurozone economies and an expected tapering down of ECB bond buying, which has been pumping up the Eurozone economy at the cost of a low value Euro

You remind me of the Iraqi minister for Information during the 2003 invasion... "there are no bombs in Baghdad, everything is just fine, the Americans are not invading". I'm not sure how much longer you can keep denying the effects of Brexit... But I'm sure you're going to try your hardest.

There is actual evidence that what the treasury predicted is happening... fortunately for us, it's not as fast as it could be. The best you can say is that things are not as bad as they could be, nothing has gotten better since Brexit.

See bold above, the vast majority of what was predicted was plain wrong, this isn't opinion, it's based on what has happened.
Exports up, manufacturing up, services up, GBP value up, share prices up, house prices up, unemployment down, productivity up, GDP up.

[Funkycoldribena]

Eddie Strohacker said:

Funkycoldribena said:

What a bleeding hypocrite.
Stroll on.

Better that than a racist.

I see you haven't changed.
How am I a racist? Enlighten me.
Just one post will do.

[confused_buyer]

Have just read the Cummings article. Very interesting. All here should take the time to read it.

[anonymous-user]

confused_buyer said:

ORD said:

A positive message was never possible. You cannot tell people who are unhappy with their lot (i.e. potential Leave voters) that they have it good. They won't believe you, even if it is true.

A positive message was possible. The main reason there wasn't one is that they (mainly Osborne and Cameron) felt the negative message had swung the Scottish Indy Ref (and GE) and they gambled the same tactic would work with the EU one. It was very much a conscious decision to use negative tactics.

Had they won, they would have been labelled political geniuses who had won two referendums and a majority at a GE in less than 2 years. So goes history.

Project fear worked well against the people who were sitting on the fence and were more concerned about the economy than the politics, without that campaign i would suspect the vote to leave would have been much higher. So it wasn't a bad tactic to employ. The mistake they made was not backing that up with a positive message that might have swayed more of the hard line leave voters.

If there were another referendum, project fear wouldn't work on the floating voters the way it did last time, so the remain cause would find it much more difficult to sway those on the fence voters who don't like the EU, but were too worried about the economics to follow their gut feeling about what to vote for.

Now add in 18 months of EU reforms to a more centralised model and the remain campaign wouldn't be able to lie about the direction of the EU moving forward. They would get slaughtered in any debate regarding the politics of the EU.