How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)
Discussion
///ajd said:
You are more than welcome that bit as soon as you find a convincing solution to the problem you have created. I assume as what you voted for you are smart enough to do so.
You've spent 1000s of pages complaining that complicated questions like membership of the EU shouldn't be left to the general populous but decided by well informed, trained civil servants and politicians we elect to make decisions for us.You now appear to want the detailed negotiations of how the chosen route is achieved to be carved out by the same people who, according to you, don't know what they are doing rather then hundreds of expert diplomats and negotiators who are currently doing it.
Well, I'll give it a go. Let's get Parliament, the Government, the Civil Service and Diplomatic Corps out of it completely. I haven't got much on next week so I'll pop over and see how I get on. There's a bloke down the road who runs an Ice Cream van who hasn't got much on at the moment so he can do the week after and maybe you can have a pop at it the week after that?
Coolbanana said:
People who voted Leave are accountable. To say all they had to do was vote and expect the Government to deliver only works if the Voters were largely educated about that which they voted upon to a greater degree so as to be sufficiently informed of the consequences of a Yay or Nay. Most, I'd argue, were not on the basis of what I read here, witness elsewhere etc.
No, they are not accountable for implementing the decision. Parliament voted overwhelmingly to put a basic decision in the hands of the people. It is they who are now accountable for implementing that decision which ever it was. Any MP who vote to have the referendum - whether they supported Leave or Remain - are accountable for being prepared to act on it. If they genuinely thought "a Leave vote cannot be implemented" they should have voted against having the referendum which, to be fair, about 60 did.PurpleMoonlight said:
How do leavers feel if the UK remaining in the SM/CU is the only way to resolve the NI border issue?
Personally I'm pretty relaxed about it. I've never had a big issue with something which ended up looking a lot like EEA/EFTA.I think, though, it should be possible to leave the CU and not have a "hard" border. If you've ever crossed between Norway and Sweden it looks a lot like the NI/RoI border in that there isn't really one so I can't see the issue.
The reason EEA is such a difficult one is purely down to the political question of FoM. I don't personally give a flying fig about FoM and never had so I'm not very vexed about it but politically it is very difficult for both major parties.
Incidentally, I think a fair chunk of the "hardball" attitude coming from RoI at the moment is as much to do with internal political posturing ahead of a GE and possible change of PM as anything else.
Edited by confused_buyer on Sunday 26th November 12:35
Yep, kills two birds with one stone (England happy as out of EU, Scotland & Ireland happy with independence/ reunification) Ireland is no longer the Catholic church influenced place it was in the 50's and 60's. If they can have a single rugby & cricket team, why not be a single country?
confused_buyer said:
I think, though, it should be possible to leave the CU and not have a "hard" border. If you've ever crossed between Norway and Sweden it looks a lot like the NI/RoI border in that there isn't really one so I can't see the issue.
That was covered in TV news in the week as a posibility.There most certainly is a hard border for trade. But they have got it down to about 4 minutes per truck processing.
PurpleMoonlight said:
That was covered in TV news in the week as a posibility.
There most certainly is a hard border for trade. But they have got it down to about 4 minutes per truck processing.
Most of it seems to be pre-cleared. On the main roads there are laybys to pull into for stop checks but most of the time they seem to be empty and unmanned. I assume they have periods of random checks. Norway/Sweden also mirror Ni/RoI that in some areas the border weaves through towns and villages but it seems to be something which they cope with. There most certainly is a hard border for trade. But they have got it down to about 4 minutes per truck processing.
confused_buyer said:
Personally I'm pretty relaxed about it. I've never had a big issue with something which ended up looking a lot like EEA/EFTA.
I think, though, it should be possible to leave the CU and not have a "hard" border. If you've ever crossed between Norway and Sweden it looks a lot like the NI/RoI border in that there isn't really one so I can't see the issue.
The reason EEA is such a difficult one is purely down to the political question of FoM. I don't personally give a flying fig about FoM and never had so I'm not very vexed about it but politically it is very difficult for both major parties.
If the UK leaves the CU you need a border but with cooperation it could be very soft. Flexit was only designed as a first easy step. So it would be sensible to remain in the CU on Brexit and only leave the CU when a soft but working border was developed.I think, though, it should be possible to leave the CU and not have a "hard" border. If you've ever crossed between Norway and Sweden it looks a lot like the NI/RoI border in that there isn't really one so I can't see the issue.
The reason EEA is such a difficult one is purely down to the political question of FoM. I don't personally give a flying fig about FoM and never had so I'm not very vexed about it but politically it is very difficult for both major parties.
Mrr T said:
If the UK leaves the CU you need a border but with cooperation it could be very soft. Flexit was only designed as a first easy step. So it would be sensible to remain in the CU on Brexit and only leave the CU when a soft but working border was developed.
I think being long term in the CU and not in the EU is very difficult legally. There are very good reasons why EEA countries are not and Turkey gets such an abysmal deal out of it there is serious talk of leaving it. A bespoke Swiss style EFTA deal with Single Market access would be OK for me. Always has been but both Labour and Conservatives have nailed themselves to the no FoM mast very loudly and the EU will not divide the four freedoms so it seems to be a non-starter.
Coolbanana said:
It isn't that Leave Voters - or any Voters - are necessarily "thicko's" when they cast a vote that is eventually proven to be a bad decision for a Country, it is simply that many Voters are not qualified to vote in certain circumstances.
I would argue that while the Referendum was a valid exercise in gauging Public Opinion, it should not have been upheld as a Final Decision on the grounds that Joe Public was largely ignorant of the effects of their vote.
Most Parliamentarians are not qualified either in this particular case.
Which is why while it is all fine and well to gauge general opinion, a Final Decision should only have been taken by MP's following an extensive and in-depth, independent Review panelled by largely neutral or equal representation in terms of prior leanings.
The evidence that the UK was ill-prepared for a Leave Vote is plainly obvious. The notion that it will be "alright in the end of the negotiations" and leaving all to not be an untidy fudge at the last minute is a poor one.
How do we think EU negotiations will go? Badly. The strongest cards are with the EU. They hold the strongest hand by some margin. Certain quarters of the UK establishment are too arrogant to realise this and it will be to their folly - and all those whom they represent.
We are seeing Leavers constantly adjust their expectations as the negotiations unfold - and unravel. We are seeing many of the hard-liners talk about how they expected this all along; pure lies. They are caught up in a bad decision that they helped to deliver by casting a bad vote; one that they were not properly qualified to cast either way.
They are too scared or proud to admit failure.
People who voted Leave are accountable. To say all they had to do was vote and expect the Government to deliver only works if the Voters were largely educated about that which they voted upon to a greater degree so as to be sufficiently informed of the consequences of a Yay or Nay. Most, I'd argue, were not on the basis of what I read here, witness elsewhere etc.
Reversing Brexit is the best option for the UK.
All this stupid talk of "Brexit means Brexit" and "We have voted" is immature ranting borne of a deep-seated ignorance or misplaced pride. It is NOT too late to repair the damage that the Referendum has and will further cause. It CAN be undone and reversed with sufficient Public and Political Will - and it will STILL be Democratic.
Anyway, have a nice Sunday all
I'm off to the beach for a walk.
Great post. I would argue that while the Referendum was a valid exercise in gauging Public Opinion, it should not have been upheld as a Final Decision on the grounds that Joe Public was largely ignorant of the effects of their vote.
Most Parliamentarians are not qualified either in this particular case.
Which is why while it is all fine and well to gauge general opinion, a Final Decision should only have been taken by MP's following an extensive and in-depth, independent Review panelled by largely neutral or equal representation in terms of prior leanings.
The evidence that the UK was ill-prepared for a Leave Vote is plainly obvious. The notion that it will be "alright in the end of the negotiations" and leaving all to not be an untidy fudge at the last minute is a poor one.
How do we think EU negotiations will go? Badly. The strongest cards are with the EU. They hold the strongest hand by some margin. Certain quarters of the UK establishment are too arrogant to realise this and it will be to their folly - and all those whom they represent.
We are seeing Leavers constantly adjust their expectations as the negotiations unfold - and unravel. We are seeing many of the hard-liners talk about how they expected this all along; pure lies. They are caught up in a bad decision that they helped to deliver by casting a bad vote; one that they were not properly qualified to cast either way.
They are too scared or proud to admit failure.
People who voted Leave are accountable. To say all they had to do was vote and expect the Government to deliver only works if the Voters were largely educated about that which they voted upon to a greater degree so as to be sufficiently informed of the consequences of a Yay or Nay. Most, I'd argue, were not on the basis of what I read here, witness elsewhere etc.
Reversing Brexit is the best option for the UK.
All this stupid talk of "Brexit means Brexit" and "We have voted" is immature ranting borne of a deep-seated ignorance or misplaced pride. It is NOT too late to repair the damage that the Referendum has and will further cause. It CAN be undone and reversed with sufficient Public and Political Will - and it will STILL be Democratic.
Anyway, have a nice Sunday all
I'm off to the beach for a walk. Its obvious, isn’t it?
confused_buyer said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
That was covered in TV news in the week as a posibility.
There most certainly is a hard border for trade. But they have got it down to about 4 minutes per truck processing.
Most of it seems to be pre-cleared. On the main roads there are laybys to pull into for stop checks but most of the time they seem to be empty and unmanned. I assume they have periods of random checks. Norway/Sweden also mirror Ni/RoI that in some areas the border weaves through towns and villages but it seems to be something which they cope with. There most certainly is a hard border for trade. But they have got it down to about 4 minutes per truck processing.
sidicks said:
///ajd said:
Great post.
Its obvious, isn’t it?
What is 'obvious' is that your solution to a vote to leave the EU is to not leave the EU.Its obvious, isn’t it?
It is obviously the best thing to do, in many peoples opinion, backed by the sort of common sense displayed above.
Arguments about imports making us richer, turning cheap steel into posh steel, turning bankers into fishermen, someone will think of a solution to NI even though no one has - its all “anti-common” sense.
///ajd said:
sidicks said:
///ajd said:
Great post.
Its obvious, isn’t it?
What is 'obvious' is that your solution to a vote to leave the EU is to not leave the EU.Its obvious, isn’t it?
It is obviously the best thing to do, in many peoples opinion, backed by the sort of common sense displayed above.
Arguments about imports making us richer, turning cheap steel into posh steel, turning bankers into fishermen, someone will think of a solution to NI even though no one has - its all “anti-common” sense.
So, clever clogs, how do we go about it ?
king hilarious.
Randy Winkman said:
You present a rather simplistic view of what people in NI want.
What could possibly go wrong?
"Brexit" is a misnomer. It never was a vote for whether Great Britain wanted to leave. It was a vote for whether the UK wanted to leave. What could possibly go wrong?
As ever Brits don't understand how their own nation is constituted and, as a result, cause themselves all sorts of problems.
Robertj21a said:
///ajd said:
sidicks said:
///ajd said:
Great post.
Its obvious, isn’t it?
What is 'obvious' is that your solution to a vote to leave the EU is to not leave the EU.Its obvious, isn’t it?
It is obviously the best thing to do, in many peoples opinion, backed by the sort of common sense displayed above.
Arguments about imports making us richer, turning cheap steel into posh steel, turning bankers into fishermen, someone will think of a solution to NI even though no one has - its all “anti-common” sense.
So, clever clogs, how do we go about it ?
Coolbanana said:
It isn't that Leave Voters - or any Voters - are necessarily "thicko's" when they cast a vote that is eventually proven to be a bad decision for a Country, it is simply that many Voters are not qualified to vote in certain circumstances.
I would argue that while the Referendum was a valid exercise in gauging Public Opinion, it should not have been upheld as a Final Decision on the grounds that Joe Public was largely ignorant of the effects of their vote.
That's famously one of the best arguments against democracy. The people don't know what they're voting for - so we shouldn't let their vote count. We can argue that a Labour government would be very bad for the economy, so we should make the elections non-binding as well.I would argue that while the Referendum was a valid exercise in gauging Public Opinion, it should not have been upheld as a Final Decision on the grounds that Joe Public was largely ignorant of the effects of their vote.
Coolbanana said:
Most Parliamentarians are not qualified either in this particular case.
Even better! The public are ignorant, the people they choose to represent them are ignorant, so only some special cadre should be allowed to make decisions that we approve of.Coolbanana said:
...
How do we think EU negotiations will go? Badly. The strongest cards are with the EU. They hold the strongest hand by some margin. Certain quarters of the UK establishment are too arrogant to realise this and it will be to their folly - and all those whom they represent.
We are seeing Leavers constantly adjust their expectations as the negotiations unfold - and unravel. We are seeing many of the hard-liners talk about how they expected this all along; pure lies. They are caught up in a bad decision that they helped to deliver by casting a bad vote; one that they were not properly qualified to cast either way.
They are too scared or proud to admit failure.
Can you, at this point in the negotiations point to something that is a genuine failure? Not a threat of something that *may* happen in the future, an actual concrete example of failure?How do we think EU negotiations will go? Badly. The strongest cards are with the EU. They hold the strongest hand by some margin. Certain quarters of the UK establishment are too arrogant to realise this and it will be to their folly - and all those whom they represent.
We are seeing Leavers constantly adjust their expectations as the negotiations unfold - and unravel. We are seeing many of the hard-liners talk about how they expected this all along; pure lies. They are caught up in a bad decision that they helped to deliver by casting a bad vote; one that they were not properly qualified to cast either way.
They are too scared or proud to admit failure.
Coolbanana said:
People who voted Leave are accountable. To say all they had to do was vote and expect the Government to deliver only works if the Voters were largely educated about that which they voted upon to a greater degree so as to be sufficiently informed of the consequences of a Yay or Nay. Most, I'd argue, were not on the basis of what I read here, witness elsewhere etc.
What about the people who didn't vote? Or the Remain campaigners who made false and exaggerated claims, weakening their case? Or the MPs who voted for a Referendum, knowing that they were all 'not qualified' (in your view) to understand the decision being made?This looks like someone who just wants to apportion blame so that they can justify overriding other people's views.
Coolbanana said:
Reversing Brexit is the best option for the UK.
All this stupid talk of "Brexit means Brexit" and "We have voted" is immature ranting borne of a deep-seated ignorance or misplaced pride. It is NOT too late to repair the damage that the Referendum has and will further cause. It CAN be undone and reversed with sufficient Public and Political Will - and it will STILL be Democratic.
And there we have the truth. "Immature ranting", "deep-seated ignorance", "stupid", "misplaced pride". No, of course you don't think Leavers are thickos, we believe you.All this stupid talk of "Brexit means Brexit" and "We have voted" is immature ranting borne of a deep-seated ignorance or misplaced pride. It is NOT too late to repair the damage that the Referendum has and will further cause. It CAN be undone and reversed with sufficient Public and Political Will - and it will STILL be Democratic.
The thing is, the public as a whole do not see things the way you do. There is not "sufficient Public and Political Will" - you can check the polls if you want, they'll confirm this. And, whatever echo chamber it is you live in, there is not the evidence that Brexit is doing the sort of harm to the country that you claim. Certainly not the sort of harm that would require a whole portion of the population to abandon their views for your benefit.
Can you point to one outcome from the negotiations yet?
Yet we have a collection of apologists who suddenly are claiming - in the absence of any evidence whatsoever - that the "best compromise" is to not leave. Either reverse the referendum, or leave in name only, leaving the EU in charge of our trade, our regulations and our courts.
This is utterly dishonest. Nothing has changed since the referendum. The process is happening. At each and every stage, our parliamentarians - who are living and breathing the issues of Brexit every day - have voted to continue the process to leave. What sort of arrogance must you have to think that you have some special insight that they don't? The only people calling for 'compromise' are the ones who have failed to have their way. It's like the bad sportsman suddenly calling for "best out of three" when they unexpectedly lost.
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