How do we think EU negotiations will go? (Vol 2)
Discussion
mx5nut said:
Robertj21a said:
///ajd said:
sidicks said:
///ajd said:
Great post.
Its obvious, isn’t it?
What is 'obvious' is that your solution to a vote to leave the EU is to not leave the EU.Its obvious, isn’t it?
It is obviously the best thing to do, in many peoples opinion, backed by the sort of common sense displayed above.
Arguments about imports making us richer, turning cheap steel into posh steel, turning bankers into fishermen, someone will think of a solution to NI even though no one has - its all “anti-common” sense.
So, clever clogs, how do we go about it ?
Robertj21a said:
mx5nut said:
Robertj21a said:
But it suits you to totally miss the key point - we ARE leaving the EU.
So, clever clogs, how do we go about it ?
I suppose expecting the winners to guide us would be asking a bit much So, clever clogs, how do we go about it ?
Coolbanana said:
It isn't that Leave Voters - or any Voters - are necessarily "thicko's" when they cast a vote that is eventually proven to be a bad decision for a Country, it is simply that many Voters are not qualified to vote in certain circumstances.
I would argue that while the Referendum was a valid exercise in gauging Public Opinion, it should not have been upheld as a Final Decision on the grounds that Joe Public was largely ignorant of the effects of their vote.
Most Parliamentarians are not qualified either in this particular case.
Which is why while it is all fine and well to gauge general opinion, a Final Decision should only have been taken by MP's following an extensive and in-depth, independent Review panelled by largely neutral or equal representation in terms of prior leanings.
The evidence that the UK was ill-prepared for a Leave Vote is plainly obvious. The notion that it will be "alright in the end of the negotiations" and leaving all to not be an untidy fudge at the last minute is a poor one.
How do we think EU negotiations will go? Badly. The strongest cards are with the EU. They hold the strongest hand by some margin. Certain quarters of the UK establishment are too arrogant to realise this and it will be to their folly - and all those whom they represent.
We are seeing Leavers constantly adjust their expectations as the negotiations unfold - and unravel. We are seeing many of the hard-liners talk about how they expected this all along; pure lies. They are caught up in a bad decision that they helped to deliver by casting a bad vote; one that they were not properly qualified to cast either way.
They are too scared or proud to admit failure.
People who voted Leave are accountable. To say all they had to do was vote and expect the Government to deliver only works if the Voters were largely educated about that which they voted upon to a greater degree so as to be sufficiently informed of the consequences of a Yay or Nay. Most, I'd argue, were not on the basis of what I read here, witness elsewhere etc.
Reversing Brexit is the best option for the UK.
All this stupid talk of "Brexit means Brexit" and "We have voted" is immature ranting borne of a deep-seated ignorance or misplaced pride. It is NOT too late to repair the damage that the Referendum has and will further cause. It CAN be undone and reversed with sufficient Public and Political Will - and it will STILL be Democratic.
Anyway, have a nice Sunday all
I'm off to the beach for a walk.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I would argue that while the Referendum was a valid exercise in gauging Public Opinion, it should not have been upheld as a Final Decision on the grounds that Joe Public was largely ignorant of the effects of their vote.
Most Parliamentarians are not qualified either in this particular case.
Which is why while it is all fine and well to gauge general opinion, a Final Decision should only have been taken by MP's following an extensive and in-depth, independent Review panelled by largely neutral or equal representation in terms of prior leanings.
The evidence that the UK was ill-prepared for a Leave Vote is plainly obvious. The notion that it will be "alright in the end of the negotiations" and leaving all to not be an untidy fudge at the last minute is a poor one.
How do we think EU negotiations will go? Badly. The strongest cards are with the EU. They hold the strongest hand by some margin. Certain quarters of the UK establishment are too arrogant to realise this and it will be to their folly - and all those whom they represent.
We are seeing Leavers constantly adjust their expectations as the negotiations unfold - and unravel. We are seeing many of the hard-liners talk about how they expected this all along; pure lies. They are caught up in a bad decision that they helped to deliver by casting a bad vote; one that they were not properly qualified to cast either way.
They are too scared or proud to admit failure.
People who voted Leave are accountable. To say all they had to do was vote and expect the Government to deliver only works if the Voters were largely educated about that which they voted upon to a greater degree so as to be sufficiently informed of the consequences of a Yay or Nay. Most, I'd argue, were not on the basis of what I read here, witness elsewhere etc.
Reversing Brexit is the best option for the UK.
All this stupid talk of "Brexit means Brexit" and "We have voted" is immature ranting borne of a deep-seated ignorance or misplaced pride. It is NOT too late to repair the damage that the Referendum has and will further cause. It CAN be undone and reversed with sufficient Public and Political Will - and it will STILL be Democratic.
Anyway, have a nice Sunday all
I'm off to the beach for a walk. What I would add is that TM/the gov has catastrophically failed to get the 48% on board in any way and has shown herself to be devoid of leadership in terms of bringing the country together. In fact she's made it worse. Whether it's due to her just being a muppet, pressure from the extreme Tory eurosceptics, fear of UKIP, the Daily Mail - whatever - I don't care any more. She's fcked up big style.
You don't just stick 2 fingers up at knocking on half of the country and tell them to lump it indefinitely as the "will of the people" as if the Ref result had been some shattering landslide. Especially when it's become starkly apparent that the realities of having to implement a Leave result were barely, if at all, thought through by those clamouring for it and now put in charge of delivering it. Added to which on an almost daily basis we see the unravelling and backtracking of promises (or even just possible benefits if we're being charitable) made to the voters.
I mean Jesus titting Christ, wasn't it blindingly obvious that such a close Ref result was a massive indicator that we should be a little bit more cautious about how we tried to Leave than the current Death or Glory charge we seem to be going down? Of course it was. If we had voted to Remain would we now be on a full blown path to complete integration with Euro, Schengen and all? Of course not. If we had to Leave the sensible solution was always going to be a gradual exit testing the water along the way: proper research/planning/wargaming with parliamentary/public accountability for at least a couple of years so we know what we're in for. Trigger A50 and then exit the EU into the SM indefinitely but with an aim to exiting that as well should public opinion support further action. If it does, exit the SM as well. If not re-evaluate.
But no, the political Brexiteers and a bunch of distasteful newspapers known for peddling right wing s
te (and I say that as someone who's voted right of centre their entire life), ramped up the rhetoric and stamped their feet like toddlers as they have to have it NOW otherwise TRAITOR. So here we are, ill-prepared and unable to answer the most basic questions honestly to ourselves (let alone others) even though we're half way through our negotiating period, on the way out to at best a completely arbitrary "transition period" that holds diminishing value the moment it starts, and at worst a no (or almost no) deal complete catastrofck exit that everyone who has even the most basic critical thinking ability not blinded by politics, let alone real experience of trading between nation states, can see is a chronically bad idea.And make no mistake, the reason we find ourselves in this situation whereby we're trying to exit asap with no real checks/balances regardless of the consequences is nothing to do with the will of the people - at least not the will of them to leave. The political Leave movement, given that they never in their wildest dreams truly expected to win and be able to exert the pressure they can, can't believe their luck has (for the moment) come in and is absolutely-to-their-bones-s
tting-it that the general public will change their minds and they'll lose their chance to get what they want and seal their place in history. To be clear, they're willing to try and rashly implement the biggest decision in 3 generations at the severe risk of people's livelihoods, for fear that those very same people might exercise one of their most basic freedoms: the right to change their mind.
Yep,my mistake.
Its been on life support for quite a while now.
But I am curious as to what state the remainers will end up in when it does happen.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Sunday 26th November 14:50
Edited by barracuda.mod on Sunday 26th November 15:45
Edited by barracuda.mod on Sunday 26th November 15:49
Funkycoldribena said:
Yep,my mistake.
Its been on life support for quite a while now.
But I am curious as to what state the remainers will end up in when it does happen.
They will probably scweam and scweam untwil thwey make themsthelfs thick.Its been on life support for quite a while now.
But I am curious as to what state the remainers will end up in when it does happen.
Edited by Funkycoldribena on Sunday 26th November 14:50
Mario149 said:
You don't just stick 2 fingers up at knocking on half of the country and tell them to lump it indefinitely
That's *exactly* what the eu themselves, and all 3 main UK parties, have done for the last 20 years or more. What's happening now is a correction, a safety valve if you will. You can ignore the public for so long, call them racist, promise them a say and then not deliver, but eventually, something will give.
Funkycoldribena said:
PurpleMoonlight said:
What, no sharing the love?
/Adj-ectives cannot describe, how I have only got the eyes, for my Eddie.
Sharing a funkycoldribena,
How wonderful it is to see outside,
Mr T. driving past, like a nut, in his Mx5.
And as we discuss the Irish border, a thought is given,
How wonderful it is to be free like a Tuna and garner,
how everything will be Coolbanana.
'Irish border!?'
'How will they ever keep law and order?'
the discussion with Eddie rumbles on and on
Eddie proclaims 'They should have asked me how to do it',
and he stands - 'it was clear- they blew it' as my head nods in appreciation.
Alas it was a dream, I awake confused and a little bemused as my brain doth sways down the drain.
this is the PH forum, and I say, I call for a little more decorum, to settle this EU matter.
For no-matter who rings the final negotiating bells, the UK is leaving the EU hells,
Yours,
Grumpy in Tonbridge Wells (Sidicks).
Carl_Manchester said:
As we sit under this purplemoonlight,
/Adj-ectives cannot describe, how I have only got the eyes, for my Eddie.
Sharing a funkycoldribena,
How wonderful it is to see outside,
Mr T. driving past, like a nut, in his Mx5.
And as we discuss the Irish border, a thought is given,
How wonderful it is to be free like a Tuna and garner,
how everything will be Coolbanana.
'Irish border!?'
'How will they ever keep law and order?'
the discussion with Eddie rumbles on and on
Eddie proclaims 'They should have asked me how to do it',
and he stands - 'it was clear- they blew it' as my head nods in appreciation.
Alas it was a dream, I awake confused and a little bemused as my brain doth sways down the drain.
this is the PH forum, and I say, I call for a little more decorum, to settle this EU matter.
For no-matter who rings the final negotiating bells, the UK is leaving the EU hells,
Yours,
Grumpy in Tonbridge Wells (Sidicks).
Most coherent post on the subject so far! /Adj-ectives cannot describe, how I have only got the eyes, for my Eddie.
Sharing a funkycoldribena,
How wonderful it is to see outside,
Mr T. driving past, like a nut, in his Mx5.
And as we discuss the Irish border, a thought is given,
How wonderful it is to be free like a Tuna and garner,
how everything will be Coolbanana.
'Irish border!?'
'How will they ever keep law and order?'
the discussion with Eddie rumbles on and on
Eddie proclaims 'They should have asked me how to do it',
and he stands - 'it was clear- they blew it' as my head nods in appreciation.
Alas it was a dream, I awake confused and a little bemused as my brain doth sways down the drain.
this is the PH forum, and I say, I call for a little more decorum, to settle this EU matter.
For no-matter who rings the final negotiating bells, the UK is leaving the EU hells,
Yours,
Grumpy in Tonbridge Wells (Sidicks).
Carl_Manchester said:
As we sit under this purplemoonlight,
/Adj-ectives cannot describe, how I have only got the eyes, for my Eddie.
Sharing a funkycoldribena,
How wonderful it is to see outside,
Mr T. driving past, like a nut, in his Mx5.
And as we discuss the Irish border, a thought is given,
How wonderful it is to be free like a Tuna and garner,
how everything will be Coolbanana.
'Irish border!?'
'How will they ever keep law and order?'
the discussion with Eddie rumbles on and on
Eddie proclaims 'They should have asked me how to do it',
and he stands - 'it was clear- they blew it' as my head nods in appreciation.
Alas it was a dream, I awake confused and a little bemused as my brain doth sways down the drain.
this is the PH forum, and I say, I call for a little more decorum, to settle this EU matter.
For no-matter who rings the final negotiating bells, the UK is leaving the EU hells,
Yours,
Grumpy in Tonbridge Wells (Sidicks).
/Adj-ectives cannot describe, how I have only got the eyes, for my Eddie.
Sharing a funkycoldribena,
How wonderful it is to see outside,
Mr T. driving past, like a nut, in his Mx5.
And as we discuss the Irish border, a thought is given,
How wonderful it is to be free like a Tuna and garner,
how everything will be Coolbanana.
'Irish border!?'
'How will they ever keep law and order?'
the discussion with Eddie rumbles on and on
Eddie proclaims 'They should have asked me how to do it',
and he stands - 'it was clear- they blew it' as my head nods in appreciation.
Alas it was a dream, I awake confused and a little bemused as my brain doth sways down the drain.
this is the PH forum, and I say, I call for a little more decorum, to settle this EU matter.
For no-matter who rings the final negotiating bells, the UK is leaving the EU hells,
Yours,
Grumpy in Tonbridge Wells (Sidicks).
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