The Irish border

[Ayahuasca]

Good point about the resurgence of violence. Post 911 the rules on dealing with terrorists have changed quite a bit, the gloves have come off, and the Americans will not be as keen to finance them either. Yes, deploying an Apache on the Falls Road might still be a bit OTT, but 'shoot to kill' has been common practice for years in anti-insurgency operations and nobody is batting an eyelid. Remember all the fuss about 'shoot to kill' years ago? There would be no fuss anymore.

I doubt they will fancy their chances.

[Ayahuasca]

IroningMan said:

'Shoot to kill' has become acceptable in theatres where arrest and trial are to all intents and purposes impossible and the people are brown.

Neither of these things apply in Belfast.

It is however acceptable on the London Underground!

There is no denying that it is far more difficult to operate an armed struggle these days. The ROI / NI terrorists (on both sides) may have been bds, but they were not suicidal bds.

[Ayahuasca]

IRA Commander: 'Lads, we are going to blow up the Brit base.'

Seamus: 'Grand, I'm up for a bit of that!'

IRA Commander: 'Well done, Seamus. Here is your suicide belt.' 'Seamus? Seamus? Seamus?'

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

sgtBerbatov said:

I don't know, but I do remember being told there were checkpoints on the border.

Fairly sure it was mentioned in Barry McGuigans book too.

There were checkpoints on the approved entry points - and they were armed. I remember visiting NI on a school tour in 1967 and we had our school bus searched by the (armed) B Specials - and that was even BEFORE The Troubles.

Pretty sure there were troubles before The Troubles.

Other UK borders (ports and airports) are not 'armed', no reason why the Irish one should be, and you can bet that it won't be.

[Ayahuasca]

saaby93 said:

Surely the only safe answer to this is for, as part of the brexit deal, Eire comes out too
As a trade Gibralter stays in - why arent they as worried about that border?

Because with Ireland there is an implied threat that Republican terrorists will be upset with a border.

[Ayahuasca]

Too Drunk to Funk said:

PurpleMoonlight said:

Too Drunk to Funk said:

Could we not just have a hard border between N.I. and the UK? That would seem to make the most sense for those who want one.

You want to create a border within the UK?

What next, Pimlico?

Well, it would be the easiest place to put the border as you can't walk from Northern Ireland to the UK.

That is what the ROI wants - a border in the Irish Sea.

However, it will mean a hard border between constituent parts of the UK, which is not acceptable, and it will infuriate the N Irish Unionists, who are propping up the UK govt at the moment. So it is a no go.

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

jsf said:

I wasn't aware the use of Eire was contentious. If people are unhappy about it i'll change my use.

Just read this which is interesting. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89ire

Don't worry - Irish people (from either side of the border) can get upset about the oddest things. It's called "historical baggage".

The (Dublin born and bred) owner of an Irish pub here had a right go at me for parking my car (Land Rover Defender with a small union jack sticker) outside his pub as it reminded him of a British Army Sacaren during the troubles! I had to remind him that he had been nowhere near the troubles! Still made me move it.

He also (different occasion) went beserk at me for referring to the Irish flags that decorated his pub as 'tricolours'. I did not know that tricolour was contentious, but it was.

[Ayahuasca]

Not many cod in the Med.

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

jsf said:

OK cool.

I'm Irish and even I have to be careful what I say to fellow Irish persons. You need a kind of 6th sense.

One of my old colleagues, an old-school Irishman from near Dublin, is a fanatic on traditional Irish songs and sings them with passion and feeling. I once made the mistake of asking him to sing 'The Green Fields of France', a song made famous by a Dublin band called the Fureys. He almost spat in disgust! 'I will NEVER sing that,' he said.

[Ayahuasca]

jsf said:

Eric Mc said:

jsf said:

OK cool.

I'm Irish and even I have to be careful what I say to fellow Irish persons. You need a kind of 6th sense.

Like many in the UK i have Irish descendants, my mums mum was born in Ireland, as was the father of my mums dad, whose dad was born in Italy. So my mum has an Italian surname, despite being born in England to an Irish mum and half Irish dad who was born in England.

Descendants does not mean what you think it means.

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

Ayahuasca said:

One of my old colleagues, an old-school Irishman from near Dublin, is a fanatic on traditional Irish songs and sings them with passion and feeling. I once made the mistake of asking him to sing 'The Green Fields of France', a song made famous by a Dublin band called the Fureys. He almost spat in disgust! 'I will NEVER sing that,' he said.

Yep - not got that 6th sense.

You see, with a name like "McBride", an Irishman would know that the hero of the song was almost definitely from Northern Ireland and a Protestant.

It's a wonderful and sad song by the way. I can't hear it without having a massive lump in my throat. In fact, the last time I did hear it was from a busker in Henry St, Dublin. I hurried past in case I started crying.

Yep, it is one of my favourites.

I like the Jake Burns version - it is a bit harder-edged. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uX3OnFxebSo

Apparently the 'real' William McBride - who may have been the inspiration for the song (written by a Scot) -came from Armagh.

[Ayahuasca]

richie99 said:

Eric Mc said:

And there's an Irish angle to fishing as well. Over the centuries, Irish fishing boats have had free access to British harbours and ports - and vise versa. That may be in issue depending on what eventually transpires from this mess.

My father was a fisherman from the 1940s to the 1990s so I know what I'm talking about regarding how fishermen of these islands did not regard borders in the slightest, even during World War 2 when Eire (note the correct use of the term) was neutral. During WW", as a young boy on Howth based fishing boats he often pulled into Northern Irish harbours with no issues.

...and the British pay for the Irish lighthouses. Never could understand why that is.

I did not know that, but half a moment's thought leads me to the conclusion that far more ships were on their way to Liverpool, Bristol or London docks through the Western Approaches, than to Irish ports, so it was mainly British shipping that the Irish lighthouses protect. Thus it made sense for Britain to pay for them. Not sure if that is still the case nowadays.

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

jsf said:

You were doing so well until then.

Do you genuinely think this is likely? Proper hard borders in the age of technology based customs systems and agreements?

Whatever transpires, it won't be the easy system we have now.

Taking fishing as an example - will Irish fishing boats be excluded from British waters? If excluded, will they be excluded from both sailing and fishing or just fishing. Will they be able to use British ports - including Northern Irish ports.

You tell me how this is all going to be sorted by legal or technical means.

British fishermen scream and wail about French/Spanish/Bulgarian fishing boats (with some justification) -as do the Irish for that matter. But will the Irish fishermen find themselves in the same boat(literally) as their other EU counterparts when it comes to exclusions from British waters.

There is so much to be sorted out.

Simple - non UK registered boats will not be allowed to fish in UK waters. They can transit UK waters, they can use UK ports, they just cannot put their nets out in UK waters. If they do, and are caught, they will be fined.

[Ayahuasca]

Yipper said:

It's time to park a nuclear sub off the coast of Dublin and bring them into line.

How will they know it's there?

[Ayahuasca]

Has the 'Irish Sea' border been confirmed?

Or is it just speculation?

[Ayahuasca]

Eric Mc said:

It looks like the intended agreement which May and the negotiators had settled on this morning has been torpedoed by the DUP.

That must have been 100% predictable.

So there is probably more going on than meets the eye.

[Ayahuasca]

I am surprised that the EU didn't make returning the Elgin Marbles, and Gibraltar, part of the Brexit deal. Two tricks missed there.

[Ayahuasca]

There is always the option of Theresa doing a deal with the Nationalist MPs that includes an Irish Sea border and throwing the DUP under the bus.

[Ayahuasca]

s2art said:

Ayahuasca said:

There is always the option of Theresa doing a deal with the Nationalist MPs that includes an Irish Sea border and throwing the DUP under the bus.

That would be the political suicide option? Unlikely to say the least. It looks like something stage managed to me. May must have known exactly what the DUP would do, they have made it very obvious what their position is WRT N.I and the UK. Now its a shared problem with the EU, who also have stated that they respect the GFA. Or at least now the EU know just how hard it would be for the UK government to do anything that would make N.I. somehow dfifferent from the mainland UK.

Yep, it may be something along those lines. "Look at the idiots we are having to deal with.." certainly the DUP's response to the 'deal' was entirely predictable.

[Ayahuasca]

davepoth said:

if we're doing that then there's not much point to the whole thing.

The point - and the benefit - is that it takes us back to being in something the EEC, when the EU was just a free trade zone, without any of the political union stuff that red-blooded Britons do not like.