The Irish border
Discussion
PurpleMoonlight said:
SpeckledJim said:
So out of the group of people who can and do come to the UK legally today, MORE of them will come tomorrow, when it's illegal?
Doesn't stack up does it.
99% of European citizens will have zero intention of emigrating anywhere illegally. It's just not something normal people do.
Time will tell.Doesn't stack up does it.
99% of European citizens will have zero intention of emigrating anywhere illegally. It's just not something normal people do.
Are there any of those times?
If it works, the EU could progress their project of getting everyone mobile by making it illegal?
SpeckledJim said:
So out of the group of people who can and do come to the UK legally today, MORE of them will come tomorrow, when it's illegal?
Doesn't stack up does it.
99% of European citizens will have zero intention of emigrating anywhere illegally. It's just not something normal people do.
We were told that very few eastern accession state people would want to come, just before the Polish plumbers started arriving...Doesn't stack up does it.
99% of European citizens will have zero intention of emigrating anywhere illegally. It's just not something normal people do.
I thought the idea of Brexit was to stop EU citizens arriving here to live legally, because there were too many of them..?
Turbotbloke said:
Because EU immigrants aren't yet illegal immigrants - they can still come to live in the UK at will. The people at Calais are illegal already (or would be if they could get here), being 'sans paper' they aren't allowed by the french to board planes etc, they're stuck where they are.
However, once Brexit happens immigrants from the EU who attempt come and live here will become illegal immigrants. At Calais, the border is policed, potential illegals find it hard/impossible to get through. If people travel to the UK by means other than the NI border, there will be a chance of catching them (eventually with much expense).
In NI/ROI we have the Good Friday Agreement which promises the border will not be policed. If it starts to be policed, the men of violence will be given an excuse to violence. If we don't police it, the newly illegal EU immigrants will be able to walk in to he UK unhindered, these will not be identified as easily as other entrants and it will be easier for them to disappear.
If only one Bulgarian walks across the NI border and merely attempts to stay, the Leave promises to stop unfettered EU immigration will be exposed and both the right-wing and left-wing press will have a field day.
Making promises you can't possibly keep to the electorate is a bad idea (see under Clegg).
Why would your newly illegal Bulgarian bother to go to Ireland and then "walk" across the border? All they have to do is catch a boat a plane or go through the Tunnel to the UK. Unless you think we are going to stop all EU citizens from visiting the UK ?. If they are then caught working illegally as non-EU citizens are now they will be returned to their own country. The fact that the Ireland border is open is a complete red herring. However, once Brexit happens immigrants from the EU who attempt come and live here will become illegal immigrants. At Calais, the border is policed, potential illegals find it hard/impossible to get through. If people travel to the UK by means other than the NI border, there will be a chance of catching them (eventually with much expense).
In NI/ROI we have the Good Friday Agreement which promises the border will not be policed. If it starts to be policed, the men of violence will be given an excuse to violence. If we don't police it, the newly illegal EU immigrants will be able to walk in to he UK unhindered, these will not be identified as easily as other entrants and it will be easier for them to disappear.
If only one Bulgarian walks across the NI border and merely attempts to stay, the Leave promises to stop unfettered EU immigration will be exposed and both the right-wing and left-wing press will have a field day.
Making promises you can't possibly keep to the electorate is a bad idea (see under Clegg).
Ghibli said:
SpeckledJim said:
You don't need an open border when you're smuggling.
The point is, regardless of what's going on at the Irish border, you could get any sort of chicken into the EU if you wanted to. You might struggle to sell it, and you might get into trouble when and if they catch up with you.
But the physical act of getting it there isn't much of a challenge.
i would image an open border would be a smugglers choice.The point is, regardless of what's going on at the Irish border, you could get any sort of chicken into the EU if you wanted to. You might struggle to sell it, and you might get into trouble when and if they catch up with you.
But the physical act of getting it there isn't much of a challenge.
SpeckledJim said:
I suppose it will. It could be one of those times where making something illegal makes people more likely to do it.
Are there any of those times?
If it works, the EU could progress their project of getting everyone mobile by making it illegal?
The UK has a problem with unlawful workers now. Increasing the potential unlawful worker pool is likely to increase the problem.Are there any of those times?
If it works, the EU could progress their project of getting everyone mobile by making it illegal?
Vanden Saab said:
Why would your newly illegal Bulgarian bother to go to Ireland and then "walk" across the border? All they have to do is catch a boat a plane or go through the Tunnel to the UK. Unless you think we are going to stop all EU citizens from visiting the UK ?. If they are then caught working illegally as non-EU citizens are now they will be returned to their own country. The fact that the Ireland border is open is a complete red herring.
Rinse and repeat.Go through the tunnel etc and your passport will be checked, your identity will be known. It will be noticed if you haven't gone home at some point and the incompetents whose job it is to look for you have some chance of finding you - if only via the biometrics on your passport.
Go via ROI and (dependent on whether there's a policed border between NI/ROI or NI/rUK), your identity will not be known. Your ability to assume a false identity, to stay and gain work is suddenly much greater, you will become practically untraceable.
The red herring was saying we would control our borders and stop the immigrants come Brexit.
Either way, if HMG can't stop illegal EU immigration (and your argument suggests they won't be able to either way), then Brexit will be proven to be a sham. And it won't matter if you say that's unfair criticism; Leave promised to close the borders to unlimited immigration; May promises to get immigration below the 10's of thousands.
You've been sold a pup. In fact, it's a manky gerbil disguised as a pup.
PurpleMoonlight said:
SpeckledJim said:
I suppose it will. It could be one of those times where making something illegal makes people more likely to do it.
Are there any of those times?
If it works, the EU could progress their project of getting everyone mobile by making it illegal?
The UK has a problem with unlawful workers now. Increasing the potential unlawful worker pool is likely to increase the problem.Are there any of those times?
If it works, the EU could progress their project of getting everyone mobile by making it illegal?
Turbotbloke said:
Vanden Saab said:
Why would your newly illegal Bulgarian bother to go to Ireland and then "walk" across the border? All they have to do is catch a boat a plane or go through the Tunnel to the UK. Unless you think we are going to stop all EU citizens from visiting the UK ?. If they are then caught working illegally as non-EU citizens are now they will be returned to their own country. The fact that the Ireland border is open is a complete red herring.
Rinse and repeat.Go through the tunnel etc and your passport will be checked, your identity will be known. It will be noticed if you haven't gone home at some point and the incompetents whose job it is to look for you have some chance of finding you - if only via the biometrics on your passport.
Go via ROI and (dependent on whether there's a policed border between NI/ROI or NI/rUK), your identity will not be known. Your ability to assume a false identity, to stay and gain work is suddenly much greater, you will become practically untraceable.
The red herring was saying we would control our borders and stop the immigrants come Brexit.
Either way, if HMG can't stop illegal EU immigration (and your argument suggests they won't be able to either way), then Brexit will be proven to be a sham. And it won't matter if you say that's unfair criticism; Leave promised to close the borders to unlimited immigration; May promises to get immigration below the 10's of thousands.
You've been sold a pup. In fact, it's a manky gerbil disguised as a pup.
JuniorD said:
Turbotbloke said:
Vanden Saab said:
Why would your newly illegal Bulgarian bother to go to Ireland and then "walk" across the border? All they have to do is catch a boat a plane or go through the Tunnel to the UK. Unless you think we are going to stop all EU citizens from visiting the UK ?. If they are then caught working illegally as non-EU citizens are now they will be returned to their own country. The fact that the Ireland border is open is a complete red herring.
Rinse and repeat.Go through the tunnel etc and your passport will be checked, your identity will be known. It will be noticed if you haven't gone home at some point and the incompetents whose job it is to look for you have some chance of finding you - if only via the biometrics on your passport.
Go via ROI and (dependent on whether there's a policed border between NI/ROI or NI/rUK), your identity will not be known. Your ability to assume a false identity, to stay and gain work is suddenly much greater, you will become practically untraceable.
The red herring was saying we would control our borders and stop the immigrants come Brexit.
Either way, if HMG can't stop illegal EU immigration (and your argument suggests they won't be able to either way), then Brexit will be proven to be a sham. And it won't matter if you say that's unfair criticism; Leave promised to close the borders to unlimited immigration; May promises to get immigration below the 10's of thousands.
You've been sold a pup. In fact, it's a manky gerbil disguised as a pup.
I'm sure the Irish will look forward to their very own jungle/s.
Ghibli said:
How are we going to stop something like chlorinated chicken getting into the EU when there is no border?
WE .....WE !!! Hmm not our problem If your lot don't want it you will have to check every Hen , ready meal and KFC for chlorine !! mind we have chlorinated tap water , and salad washed in chlorine and we swim in the f
king stuff so I'm not sure what the fuss is about , and anyway we will have the choice ....Turbotbloke said:
Either way, if HMG can't stop illegal EU immigration (and your argument suggests they won't be able to either way), then Brexit will be proven to be a sham. And it won't matter if you say that's unfair criticism; Leave promised to close the borders to unlimited immigration; May promises to get immigration below the 10's of thousands.
The point of Brexit as been explained many times is to escape the protectionist racket of the EU and be able to trade with the rest of the world freely.If you really believe that EU immigration is a problem, that's hardly an argument for staying in the EU.
The Remainers started off by saying that Brexit will be a disaster because we will be obliged by forces unspecified to close the NI border. Now they have finally accepted this was yet another ludicrous scare story, they insist that not closing it is a disaster.
powerstroke said:
Ghibli said:
How are we going to stop something like chlorinated chicken getting into the EU when there is no border?
WE .....WE !!! Hmm not our problem If your lot don't want it you will have to check every Hen , ready meal and KFC for chlorine !! mind we have chlorinated tap water , and salad washed in chlorine and we swim in the fking stuff so I'm not sure what the fuss is about , and anyway we will have the choice ....They could always impose a hard border and let our exports back up while we leave our border open.
Ghibli said:
They are not my lot. It might explain to some why there has been the suggestion of moving the border to the Irish Sea and keeping EU standards in Northern Ireland.
They could always impose a hard border and let our exports back up while we leave our border open.
sorry my mistake I was under the impression you supported the EU not the UK..They could always impose a hard border and let our exports back up while we leave our border open.
We could but I don't think even our current lot are that stupid I would guess the ROI would be in a serious mess if we wanted to be funny , closing the Irish border woundent make the slightest difference to the UK economy as a whole ....
JuniorD said:
At this rate, post-brexit and without any border control between NI & ROI, any "undesirable" European who would otherwise be stopped upon entry into mainland UK, will be able to go via Ireland and simply enter Northern Ireland. If enough of them came, and they were subsequently stopped from leaving NI ports for mainland UK, we could be faced with a Sangatte - style refugee camp in Larne, which paradoxically would actually make a vast improvement to the town.
Interesting idea.Still, the DUP aren't keen on a border between NI and rUK. If that were to be proposed prior to the deadline, I can't see May continuing to have the support of the DUP in parliament...
If what you suggest should come to pass, I can imagine which ex-paramilitaries would be rubbing their hands in glee. The Police Service of Northern Ireland have made some inroads into the PIRA drug gangs (with their chums the "PIRA anti-drug gang enforcers") since the Good Friday Agreement and the PIRA has been on the lookout for new "business opportunities".
A few camps containing illegal immigrants desperate to reach to the mainland and happy to pay illicit ferrymen could be just what the PIRA need to turn over some cash. Ditto the Loyalist drug gangs.
Dr Jekyll said:
The point of Brexit as been explained many times is to escape the protectionist racket of the EU and be able to trade with the rest of the world freely.
If you really believe that EU immigration is a problem, that's hardly an argument for staying in the EU.
The Remainers started off by saying that Brexit will be a disaster because we will be obliged by forces unspecified to close the NI border. Now they have finally accepted this was yet another ludicrous scare story, they insist that not closing it is a disaster.
Sorry, but you don't speak for all Brexiters. One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish. Or, if they do get their wish, it'll be so compromised they won't like it.If you really believe that EU immigration is a problem, that's hardly an argument for staying in the EU.
The Remainers started off by saying that Brexit will be a disaster because we will be obliged by forces unspecified to close the NI border. Now they have finally accepted this was yet another ludicrous scare story, they insist that not closing it is a disaster.
The idea that you, Canute like, can tell anyone what Brexit is about and what it isn't about is laughable. For a time the Leavers took hold of the narrative, but that narrative has now escaped them and is taking on a life of its own and you can't control it - just like the Remainers couldn't control the Leave narrative for nearly 40 years until CMD blinked.
The Leavers problem, now that they're the "winners", is that they have no hope of containing the debate anymore. Just like the Remainers couldn't fight against forty years of lies and fake news about straight cucumbers and EU accounts, the Leavers will now have to face years and years of misinformation and there's nothing you can do about it.
Every time you think you've succeeded in blocking one line of argument disparaging Brexit a new one will arise and this process will never stop, because you can't stop negative opinions.
In short, every bit of Brexit fake news is going to land in your lap and there's nothing you can do about it. You've had your victory, unfortunately it was pyrrhic and now you're going to have to own it, whether you like it or not.
Turbotbloke said:
Dr Jekyll said:
The point of Brexit as been explained many times is to escape the protectionist racket of the EU and be able to trade with the rest of the world freely.
If you really believe that EU immigration is a problem, that's hardly an argument for staying in the EU.
The Remainers started off by saying that Brexit will be a disaster because we will be obliged by forces unspecified to close the NI border. Now they have finally accepted this was yet another ludicrous scare story, they insist that not closing it is a disaster.
Sorry, but you don't speak for all Brexiters. One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish. Or, if they do get their wish, it'll be so compromised they won't like it.If you really believe that EU immigration is a problem, that's hardly an argument for staying in the EU.
The Remainers started off by saying that Brexit will be a disaster because we will be obliged by forces unspecified to close the NI border. Now they have finally accepted this was yet another ludicrous scare story, they insist that not closing it is a disaster.
The idea that you, Canute like, can tell anyone what Brexit is about and what it isn't about is laughable. For a time the Leavers took hold of the narrative, but that narrative has now escaped them and is taking on a life of its own and you can't control it - just like the Remainers couldn't control the Leave narrative for nearly 40 years until CMD blinked.
The Leavers problem, now that they're the "winners", is that they have no hope of containing the debate anymore. Just like the Remainers couldn't fight against forty years of lies and fake news about straight cucumbers and EU accounts, the Leavers will now have to face years and years of misinformation and there's nothing you can do about it.
Every time you think you've succeeded in blocking one line of argument disparaging Brexit a new one will arise and this process will never stop, because you can't stop negative opinions.
In short, every bit of Brexit fake news is going to land in your lap and there's nothing you can do about it. You've had your victory, unfortunately it was pyrrhic and now you're going to have to own it, whether you like it or not.
Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
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