The Irish border
Discussion
Ghibli said:
Gecko1978 said:
Free trade is not bending over backwards its mutually beneficial to the people of Europe however the EU perhaps thinks the people of europe are less important than the EU project.
So we still lerave the EU and as we are paying a divorce bill of sorts then a free trade agreement is not unreasonable is it.
Again the EU could make it easy but the EU do not want to and so the Island of Ireland is used as a pawn by Brussels and is (big if) people die as a result well the EU can just blame the UK etc because people of Europe are not important but the EU machine is
Ireland has a land border and that is what needs to be negotiated. It's hardly the EUs fault that there is a land border in IrelandSo we still lerave the EU and as we are paying a divorce bill of sorts then a free trade agreement is not unreasonable is it.
Again the EU could make it easy but the EU do not want to and so the Island of Ireland is used as a pawn by Brussels and is (big if) people die as a result well the EU can just blame the UK etc because people of Europe are not important but the EU machine is
Turbotbloke said:
Sorry, but you don't speak for all Brexiters. One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish. Or, if they do get their wish, it'll be so compromised they won't like it.
The idea that you, Canute like, can tell anyone what Brexit is about and what it isn't about is laughable. For a time the Leavers took hold of the narrative, but that narrative has now escaped them and is taking on a life of its own and you can't control it - just like the Remainers couldn't control the Leave narrative for nearly 40 years until CMD blinked.
The Leavers problem, now that they're the "winners", is that they have no hope of containing the debate anymore. Just like the Remainers couldn't fight against forty years of lies and fake news about straight cucumbers and EU accounts, the Leavers will now have to face years and years of misinformation and there's nothing you can do about it.
Every time you think you've succeeded in blocking one line of argument disparaging Brexit a new one will arise and this process will never stop, because you can't stop negative opinions.
In short, every bit of Brexit fake news is going to land in your lap and there's nothing you can do about it. You've had your victory, unfortunately it was pyrrhic and now you're going to have to own it, whether you like it or not.
Spot on, the only way to stop all the negativity is to succeed. I cant imagine why the EU and their supporters didn't think of that. Much like Scottish independence a referendum was held and a decision made. No doubt as in Scotland a small group of Remnants will continue to talk bThe idea that you, Canute like, can tell anyone what Brexit is about and what it isn't about is laughable. For a time the Leavers took hold of the narrative, but that narrative has now escaped them and is taking on a life of its own and you can't control it - just like the Remainers couldn't control the Leave narrative for nearly 40 years until CMD blinked.
The Leavers problem, now that they're the "winners", is that they have no hope of containing the debate anymore. Just like the Remainers couldn't fight against forty years of lies and fake news about straight cucumbers and EU accounts, the Leavers will now have to face years and years of misinformation and there's nothing you can do about it.
Every time you think you've succeeded in blocking one line of argument disparaging Brexit a new one will arise and this process will never stop, because you can't stop negative opinions.
In short, every bit of Brexit fake news is going to land in your lap and there's nothing you can do about it. You've had your victory, unfortunately it was pyrrhic and now you're going to have to own it, whether you like it or not.
ks about how big a mistake the vote was and how badly they were lied to, while the majority will get on with life realising how lucky they were that they just dodged a bullet.Lets hope you enjoy your 40 years of being ignored and your opinion being laughed at as much as leavers have...
Turbotbloke said:
don'tbesilly said:
Yawn.
Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
It's nice to know you agree, now all you have to do is understand it.Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
The lie;
Turbotbloke said:
One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish.
desolate said:
don'tbesilly said:
The lie;
Why is that a lie?Turbotbloke said:
One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish.
Dr Jekyll said:
Turbotbloke said:
Either way, if HMG can't stop illegal EU immigration (and your argument suggests they won't be able to either way), then Brexit will be proven to be a sham. And it won't matter if you say that's unfair criticism; Leave promised to close the borders to unlimited immigration; May promises to get immigration below the 10's of thousands.
The point of Brexit as been explained many times is to escape the protectionist racket of the EU and be able to trade with the rest of the world freely.If you really believe that EU immigration is a problem, that's hardly an argument for staying in the EU.
The Remainers started off by saying that Brexit will be a disaster because we will be obliged by forces unspecified to close the NI border. Now they have finally accepted this was yet another ludicrous scare story, they insist that not closing it is a disaster.
don'tbesilly said:
Turbotbloke said:
don'tbesilly said:
Yawn.
Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
It's nice to know you agree, now all you have to do is understand it.Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
The lie;
Turbotbloke said:
One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish.
A significant proportion of Brexiters (excluding you), wanted "controlled Immigration" and it still doesn't look like they'll get their wish.
If all you can do is offer semantic objections to what I said you're still losing the argument.
Let's try again:
The leave campaign was (after 40 years) successful because it ran a wholly negative campaign. Many of the things Leavers said may have been true but they were lost beneath a deluge of lies; of bendy bananas, "Breaking Point" posters and £350m to the NHS.
What was true and what were lies, however, no longer matters. Leave won and now has to deliver on every lie and false promise or be seen to fail. And it doesn't matter how harebrained the lie or ridiculous the promise. Nor does matter how much you cry 'unfair!' - that such and such ain't true - because too few Leavers failed to scotch the lies or the mad promises and now it's coming back to bite.
Now Remain is in the position of being able to criticise (and lie) without responsibility. Every time someone says something bad about Brexit (true or false) a little bit of poo will stick. One day the poo will drown you, just like it did the Remain campaign.
Welcome to the curse of Farage.
Turbotbloke said:
don'tbesilly said:
Turbotbloke said:
don'tbesilly said:
Yawn.
Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
It's nice to know you agree, now all you have to do is understand it.Like many lies that were told by Remain prior to the referendum, the untruths continue to be perpetuated.
The lie;
Turbotbloke said:
One bunch of Brexiters (excluding you) wanted to close the borders to EU immigrants and it doesn't look like they'll get their wish.
A significant proportion of Brexiters (excluding you), wanted "controlled Immigration" and it still doesn't look like they'll get their wish.
If all you can do is offer semantic objections to what I said you're still losing the argument.
Let's try again:
The leave campaign was (after 40 years) successful because it ran a wholly negative campaign. Many of the things Leavers said may have been true but they were lost beneath a deluge of lies; of bendy bananas, "Breaking Point" posters and £350m to the NHS.
What was true and what were lies, however, no longer matters. Leave won and now has to deliver on every lie and false promise or be seen to fail. And it doesn't matter how harebrained the lie or ridiculous the promise. Nor does matter how much you cry 'unfair!' - that such and such ain't true - because too few Leavers failed to scotch the lies or the mad promises and now it's coming back to bite.
Now Remain is in the position of being able to criticise (and lie) without responsibility. Every time someone says something bad about Brexit (true or false) a little bit of poo will stick. One day the poo will drown you, just like it did the Remain campaign.
Welcome to the curse of Farage.
One day the poo will drown you.
Just like it did the Remain campaign.
You forgot the invasion of illegal immigrants coming to the UK via Ireland, perhaps you could include the line in your 'pooh' rap.
By the way the cake is as nice tonight as it was earlier today, yummy
Gilbertron said:
So the leave campaign ran a negative and dishonest campaign to leave the EU , and the plan is to run a negative and dishonest campaign to get back in?
It's not a plan, it's just what will happen, it's just what happened to the Leave campaign. Many Leavers were level headed but they didn't keep the nutters in check and that's given a free pass to the Remain nutters.
Personally, I have no intention to lie or commit falsehoods, I'm simply testing a number of Leave positions with hypotheticals; which is a perfectly legit method of debate, to tease out flaws in an argument. If you think I should stop doing it, you'll need to close down half of NPE as well.
Nor am I taking a moral position over the Brexit lies/misinformation, simply pointing out the trap. So, please, don't accuse me of being immoral, what I'm saying is banal.
Today the Brexiters are squirming over the problems presented by the NI border. Tomorrow it'll be Gibraltar (and before don'tbesilly complains about nobody mentioning Gibraltar by this time tomorrow, 'tomorrow' is an illusion to an unspecified time in the future). The day after (another illusion) it'll be something else and so on. Drip, drip, drip. One day, the wind will change and people will see Brexit as the gigantic waste of time and effort it is. Until that time it'll be a more uncomfortable ride for the Leavers than the Remainers because Leave won and Remain lost.
Banal but true. Unfortunately, Leavers can't get over it.
speeling!
Edited by Turbotbloke on Saturday 14th April 00:57
Turbotbloke said:
Gilbertron said:
So the leave campaign ran a negative and dishonest campaign to leave the EU , and the plan is to run a negative and dishonest campaign to get back in?
It's not a plan, it's just what will happen, it's just what happened to the Leave campaign. Many Leavers were level headed but they didn't keep the nutters in check and that's given a free pass to the Remain nutters.
Personally, I have no intention to lie or commit falsehoods, I'm simply testing a number of Leave positions with hypotheticals; which is a perfectly legit method of debate, to tease out flaws in an argument. If you think I should stop doing it, you'll need to close down half of NPE as well.
Nor am I taking a moral position over the Brexit lies/misinformation, simply pointing out the trap. So, please, don't accuse me of being immoral, what I'm saying is banal.
Today the Brexiters are squirming over the problems presented by the NI border. Tomorrow it'll be Gibraltar (and before don'tbesilly complains about nobody mentioning Gibraltar by this time tomorrow, 'tomorrow' is an illusion to an unspecified time in the future). The day after (another illusion) it'll be something else and so on. Drip, drip, drip. One day, the wind will change and people will see Brexit as the gigantic waste of time and effort it is. Until that time it'll be a more uncomfortable ride for the Leavers than the Remainers because Leave won and Remain lost.
Banal but true. Unfortunately, Leavers can't get over it.
speeling!
Edited by Turbotbloke on Saturday 14th April 00:57
You're hilarious
Turbotbloke said:
It's not a plan, it's just what will happen, it's just what happened to the Leave campaign.
Many Leavers were level headed but they didn't keep the nutters in check and that's given a free pass to the Remain nutters.
Personally, I have no intention to lie or commit falsehoods, I'm simply testing a number of Leave positions with hypotheticals; which is a perfectly legit method of debate, to tease out flaws in an argument. If you think I should stop doing it, you'll need to close down half of NPE as well.
Nor am I taking a moral position over the Brexit lies/misinformation, simply pointing out the trap. So, please, don't accuse me of being immoral, what I'm saying is banal.
Today the Brexiters are squirming over the problems presented by the NI border. Tomorrow it'll be Gibraltar (and before don'tbesilly complains about nobody mentioning Gibraltar by this time tomorrow, 'tomorrow' is an illusion to an unspecified time in the future). The day after (another illusion) it'll be something else and so on. Drip, drip, drip. One day, the wind will change and people will see Brexit as the gigantic waste of time and effort it is. Until that time it'll be a more uncomfortable ride for the Leavers than the Remainers because Leave won and Remain lost.
Banal but true. Unfortunately, Leavers can't get over it.
speeling!
You must have missed the "do not mention Gibraltar it is not going to be a problem" memo from the EU. Many Leavers were level headed but they didn't keep the nutters in check and that's given a free pass to the Remain nutters.
Personally, I have no intention to lie or commit falsehoods, I'm simply testing a number of Leave positions with hypotheticals; which is a perfectly legit method of debate, to tease out flaws in an argument. If you think I should stop doing it, you'll need to close down half of NPE as well.
Nor am I taking a moral position over the Brexit lies/misinformation, simply pointing out the trap. So, please, don't accuse me of being immoral, what I'm saying is banal.
Today the Brexiters are squirming over the problems presented by the NI border. Tomorrow it'll be Gibraltar (and before don'tbesilly complains about nobody mentioning Gibraltar by this time tomorrow, 'tomorrow' is an illusion to an unspecified time in the future). The day after (another illusion) it'll be something else and so on. Drip, drip, drip. One day, the wind will change and people will see Brexit as the gigantic waste of time and effort it is. Until that time it'll be a more uncomfortable ride for the Leavers than the Remainers because Leave won and Remain lost.
Banal but true. Unfortunately, Leavers can't get over it.
speeling!
Edited by Turbotbloke on Saturday 14th April 00:57
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-gibra...
The only flaw in your argument is if Brexit is a success and only time will give us that answer. At the moment the only uncomfortable people are the remnants as one by one their carefully constructed dominos fall over.
Vanden Saab said:
Turbotbloke said:
It's not a plan, it's just what will happen, it's just what happened to the Leave campaign.
Many Leavers were level headed but they didn't keep the nutters in check and that's given a free pass to the Remain nutters.
Personally, I have no intention to lie or commit falsehoods, I'm simply testing a number of Leave positions with hypotheticals; which is a perfectly legit method of debate, to tease out flaws in an argument. If you think I should stop doing it, you'll need to close down half of NPE as well.
Nor am I taking a moral position over the Brexit lies/misinformation, simply pointing out the trap. So, please, don't accuse me of being immoral, what I'm saying is banal.
Today the Brexiters are squirming over the problems presented by the NI border. Tomorrow it'll be Gibraltar (and before don'tbesilly complains about nobody mentioning Gibraltar by this time tomorrow, 'tomorrow' is an illusion to an unspecified time in the future). The day after (another illusion) it'll be something else and so on. Drip, drip, drip. One day, the wind will change and people will see Brexit as the gigantic waste of time and effort it is. Until that time it'll be a more uncomfortable ride for the Leavers than the Remainers because Leave won and Remain lost.
Banal but true. Unfortunately, Leavers can't get over it.
speeling!
You must have missed the "do not mention Gibraltar it is not going to be a problem" memo from the EU. Many Leavers were level headed but they didn't keep the nutters in check and that's given a free pass to the Remain nutters.
Personally, I have no intention to lie or commit falsehoods, I'm simply testing a number of Leave positions with hypotheticals; which is a perfectly legit method of debate, to tease out flaws in an argument. If you think I should stop doing it, you'll need to close down half of NPE as well.
Nor am I taking a moral position over the Brexit lies/misinformation, simply pointing out the trap. So, please, don't accuse me of being immoral, what I'm saying is banal.
Today the Brexiters are squirming over the problems presented by the NI border. Tomorrow it'll be Gibraltar (and before don'tbesilly complains about nobody mentioning Gibraltar by this time tomorrow, 'tomorrow' is an illusion to an unspecified time in the future). The day after (another illusion) it'll be something else and so on. Drip, drip, drip. One day, the wind will change and people will see Brexit as the gigantic waste of time and effort it is. Until that time it'll be a more uncomfortable ride for the Leavers than the Remainers because Leave won and Remain lost.
Banal but true. Unfortunately, Leavers can't get over it.
speeling!
Edited by Turbotbloke on Saturday 14th April 00:57
https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-gibra...
The only flaw in your argument is if Brexit is a success and only time will give us that answer. At the moment the only uncomfortable people are the remnants as one by one their carefully constructed dominos fall over.
-
You still don't get it. Brexit can only be a success in the same way that the EU is already a success, ie some of it good some of it bad.
Unfortunately, trying to publicise the good things when only the bad things attract the attention of the fickle media and fickle voters is your problem. The reality is that Brexit will probably just rumble on being neither a great success nor a great failure - however, success tends to feel short-lived whereas the failures last forever...
Brexit is now on the wrong side of the press cycle and that's where it's going to stay. It won't matter how many press conferences featuring Prime Minister Gove, extolling the latest Brexit success', are aired, the only thing that the press will latch on to will be the stuff he's trying to hide, where he's failing and his out and out lies (see under Tony Blair). Why, because good news doesn't sell newspapers or web space.
You have Paul Dacre and the Daily Mail et al to answer for this. Even if Brexit is a minor success those newspaper will feed on the negatives like pirañas on a dead horse. Even the biggest Brexit wins will be chased off the front pages by piffling Brexit failures.
Enjoy your cake; it's made with flour from Germany, jam from France and Irish dairy cream and it smells of failure.
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