The Irish border

[Mrr T]

Dr Jekyll said:

Mrr T said:

You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.

Actually the WTO rules are that you can't restrict trade across borders any more than is necessary, in practice that means for consumer safety. Given that we've had an open border for 40 years without radioactive man eating leprechauns sneaking across it, it would be rather tricky to convince WTO that we needed to search every truck even if we wanted to.

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

[Dr Jekyll]

Eric Mc said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Read again what I said. I was making the precise point that there is nothing dangerous or offensive coming across the border when it's open, no such thing as a radioactive man eating leprechaun, so no reason to close it.

Equally other EU citizens are already accessing the UK via the NI border without any problems.

It's the fact that you chose to depict the Irish in a certain way shows how your mind works. PH is becoming quite hateful at times - especially NP&E and especially when it comes to race and ethnicity.

Time to bow out I think from these poisonous discussions.

I didn't portray the Irish in any way at all. The phrase 'radioactive man eating leprechauns' referred to the kind of hypothetical dangerous substance that might require border controls to keep out. The point I was making was that there is no such substance, that the very idea is ridiculous. If I say the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist am I insulting the Scots? If I express skepticism as to the sasquatch or the Yeti am I insulting the Americans or Nepalese?

I was actually making the case for open border between the UK and Ireland and have done so many times, hardly the action of a racist. I can assure you that my view of the Irish in general (insofar as I have one, they don't seem different from anyone else) is a great deal more positive than your view of the English.

[Eric Mc]

Dr Jekyll said:

I didn't portray the Irish in any way at all. The phrase 'radioactive man eating leprechauns' referred to the kind of hypothetical dangerous substance that might require border controls to keep out. The point I was making was that there is no such substance, that the very idea is ridiculous. If I say the Loch Ness monster doesn't exist am I insulting the Scots? If I express skepticism as to the sasquatch or the Yeti am I insulting the Americans or Nepalese?

I was actually making the case for open border between the UK and Ireland and have done so many times, hardly the action of a racist. I can assure you that my view of the Irish in general (insofar as I have one, they don't seem different from anyone else) is a great deal more positive than your view of the English.

I don't classify a nation based on some preconceived notion of their characteristics. However, I will draw a negative conclusion of an individual who displays unpleasant characteristics - irrespective of their nationality.

[Dr Jekyll]

Mrr T said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Mrr T said:

You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.

Actually the WTO rules are that you can't restrict trade across borders any more than is necessary, in practice that means for consumer safety. Given that we've had an open border for 40 years without radioactive man eating leprechauns sneaking across it, it would be rather tricky to convince WTO that we needed to search every truck even if we wanted to.

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

No, the rules are that you must charge the same tariff to all members.

[alfie2244]

Mrr T said:

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

Is it really? Does it actually cover the actual borders and not just tariffs?

[Dr Jekyll]

Eric Mc said:

I don't classify a nation based on some preconceived notion of their characteristics. However, I will draw a negative conclusion of an individual who displays unpleasant characteristics - irrespective of their nationality.

Go on then, what unpleasant characteristics have I displayed? Not what have you assumed given that I voted Leave and want on open NI border. Displayed.

[Eric Mc]

Dr Jekyll said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't classify a nation based on some preconceived notion of their characteristics. However, I will draw a negative conclusion of an individual who displays unpleasant characteristics - irrespective of their nationality.

Go on then, what unpleasant characteristics have I displayed? Not what have you assumed given that I voted Leave and want on open NI border. Displayed.

I'm out.

If you don't recognise your own unpleasantness then it is pointless me having to spell it out to you.

Enjoy the thread - it's all your now.

[Mrr T]

Dr Jekyll said:

Mrr T said:

Dr Jekyll said:

Mrr T said:

You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.

Actually the WTO rules are that you can't restrict trade across borders any more than is necessary, in practice that means for consumer safety. Given that we've had an open border for 40 years without radioactive man eating leprechauns sneaking across it, it would be rather tricky to convince WTO that we needed to search every truck even if we wanted to.

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

No, the rules are that you must charge the same tariff to all members.

NO. Have you heard about google can you read? This is not hard. The concept of most “favour trading status” does not just refer to tariffs, it covers customs processes and regulations as well.

So under WTO the border requirements for Ireland are the same as those for Felixstowe.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-op...

[andymadmak]

Eric Mc said:

I don't classify a nation based on some preconceived notion of their characteristics.

Are you quite sure about that? I seem to remember a thread some time ago where you were joining in with some quite unpleasant comments about the English - but then according to you that was all just good fun and it was nice to see the English squirm. (or words to that effect)

Nevertheless, I think that you're over reacting to a comment that clearly does not mean the interpretation you have chosen to place upon it.

[Mrr T]

alfie2244 said:

Mrr T said:

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

Is it really? Does it actually cover the actual borders and not just tariffs?

While this link mention tariffs as an example it clearly refers to granting any “favour”. Having no border control in Ireland would mean we would have to have no border controls with the other WTO countries.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_...

[Dr Jekyll]

Mrr T said:

NO. Have you heard about google can you read? This is not hard. The concept of most “favour trading status” does not just refer to tariffs, it covers customs processes and regulations as well.

So under WTO the border requirements for Ireland are the same as those for Felixstowe.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-op...

It's the rules that have to be the same for all countries. Not every border crossing has to have the same infrastructure.

[tumble dryer]

andymadmak said:

Eric Mc said:

I don't classify a nation based on some preconceived notion of their characteristics.

Are you quite sure about that? I seem to remember a thread some time ago where you were joining in with some quite unpleasant comments about the English - but then according to you that was all just good fun and it was nice to see the English squirm. (or words to that effect)

Nevertheless, I think that you're over reacting to a comment that clearly does not mean the interpretation you have chosen to place upon it.

[Mrr T]

Dr Jekyll said:

Mrr T said:

NO. Have you heard about google can you read? This is not hard. The concept of most “favour trading status” does not just refer to tariffs, it covers customs processes and regulations as well.

So under WTO the border requirements for Ireland are the same as those for Felixstowe.

http://ukandeu.ac.uk/explainers/no-deal-the-wto-op...

It's the rules that have to be the same for all countries. Not every border crossing has to have the same infrastructure.

You mean these rules?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importing-goods-from-o...

So you now accept WTO rules require us to have a border with Ireland?

[psi310398]

Mrr T said:

You mean these rules?
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/importing-goods-from-o...

So you now accept WTO rules require us to have a border with Ireland?

We already have a border with Ireland. The issue is what you put, or don't put, on it.

[Sway]

Mrr T said:

alfie2244 said:

Mrr T said:

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

Is it really? Does it actually cover the actual borders and not just tariffs?

While this link mention tariffs as an example it clearly refers to granting any “favour”. Having no border control in Ireland would mean we would have to have no border controls with the other WTO countries.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_...

For goods.

No one is suggesting differential treatment for goods coming across the Irish border compared to anywhere else.

WTO gives zero fks about people movements.

[slow_poke]

Sway said:

Mrr T said:

alfie2244 said:

Mrr T said:

Actually the WTO rules are that outside an FTA you must treat all members the same. So the border with Ireland must be the same as every other border with WTO countries.

Is it really? Does it actually cover the actual borders and not just tariffs?

While this link mention tariffs as an example it clearly refers to granting any “favour”. Having no border control in Ireland would mean we would have to have no border controls with the other WTO countries.

https://www.wto.org/english/thewto_e/whatis_e/tif_...

For goods.

No one is suggesting differential treatment for goods coming across the Irish border compared to anywhere else.

WTO gives zero fks about people movements.

But Leave voters do give fks, because they voted to take back control of immigration. And i don't seee how relying on another government, in Dublin, to assist UK immigration control by passing information of arrivals in the RoI is anywhere near "in control".

It's a circle that I haven't seen being squared yet.

[loafer123]

The Immigration debate is about people having residency and the ability to work, not about them visiting per se.

[Tuna]

slow_poke said:

But Leave voters do give fks, because they voted to take back control of immigration. And i don't seee how relying on another government, in Dublin, to assist UK immigration control by passing information of arrivals in the RoI is anywhere near "in control".

It's a circle that I haven't seen being squared yet.

"Control" is about being able to decide who is eligible to stay - live and work - in the UK, not standing on a border yelling "papers please!".

The issue is as much the concern of the EU (people travelling in the other direction), so there is no reason not to agree a mutual sharing of traveller IDs at external borders.

Some people are determined to claim that there is "no solution" for any of this because it suits their political agenda. There was also "no solution" to advancing peace in Ireland right up until the Good Friday Agreement was brokered.

[SpeckledJim]

Nice of Eric to pop in.

[mx5nut]

Mrr T said:

You have to understand many on team leave live in a parallel universe. They want the UK to leave the EU on WTO rules but ignore WTO on having a border with Ireland.

That's because "WTO" is just a buzzword they've heard. Few of them seem to understand what it would actually mean for the country.