The Irish border

[JuniorD]

p1stonhead said:

SpeckledJim said:

p1stonhead said:

SpeckledJim said:

Ayahuasca said:

I called it a while ago. Boris has thrown the DUP under the bus. Probably the best place for them. He is good at buses.

In a couple of generations there will be a united Ireland and Varadkar will claim in his memoirs that that is what he wanted all along.

Not a bad thing really.

What bus have they gone under? The deal looks pretty good for them?

In what way?!

The UNIONISTS being cut out of the UNION by a border between two parts of the same country they feel they are a part of?

How 'cut out'?

What 'border'? The one that only really exists on the paperwork of the very few people engaged in the logistics of exports and imports?

They don’t and won’t care. It’s the principle to them. They’ll never support it.

Borders exist in their minds. They actually fking love borders so much they would build them all day long around everything both real and perceived. But not virtual borders in the Irish see, they can’t take that.

[vaud]

Max_Torque said:

How exactly does being in the EU, yet not being in the EU work for Ireland? The loop holes and smuggling opportunities are going to be rife! Perhaps the IoM and North Wales coasts will once again become home for Pirates.... ;-)

Investigations into mass smuggling will carry on just as they are now - intelligence led.

Minor smuggling will carry on inside the EU, as it does today.

[lornemalvo]

The Northern Irish can't even agree enough between themselves to keep their devolved parliament operating, they all walked out in January 2017 and NI has the record for being the region with the longest period without a sitting parliament. If they can't even talk among themselves, we should make them take whatever we give them. They have not earned the right to dictate our future with the EU

[vaud]

lornemalvo said:

The Northern Irish can't even agree enough between themselves to keep their devolved parliament operating, they all walked out in January 2017 and NI has the record for being the region with the longest period without a sitting parliament. If they can't even talk among themselves, we should make them take whatever we give them. They have not earned the right to dictate our future with the EU

"We will not sit down with people who sit down with people who sit down with people who sit down with people who sit down with people who sit with terrorists" was the Ian Paisley satire that I remember from the 80s.

[anonymous-user]

vaud said:

Max_Torque said:

How exactly does being in the EU, yet not being in the EU work for Ireland? The loop holes and smuggling opportunities are going to be rife! Perhaps the IoM and North Wales coasts will once again become home for Pirates.... ;-)

Investigations into mass smuggling will carry on just as they are now - intelligence led.

Minor smuggling will carry on inside the EU, as it does today.

Of course, but having a geographically area that operates under two different rules opens up a whole heap of loopholes that don't exist when the border is definitively delineated. For example, i send a gift to someone in NI, from within the UK. That would be covered under the UK's laws and not subject to any additional checks or levy as it leaves England/Scotland or Wales . But what then happens if that "Gift" is simply sent on from NI to SI? If there are no physical checks, what prevents goods simply being "exported" to the EU that way?

[SpeckledJim]

Max_Torque said:

vaud said:

Max_Torque said:

How exactly does being in the EU, yet not being in the EU work for Ireland? The loop holes and smuggling opportunities are going to be rife! Perhaps the IoM and North Wales coasts will once again become home for Pirates.... ;-)

Investigations into mass smuggling will carry on just as they are now - intelligence led.

Minor smuggling will carry on inside the EU, as it does today.

Of course, but having a geographically area that operates under two different rules opens up a whole heap of loopholes that don't exist when the border is definitively delineated. For example, i send a gift to someone in NI, from within the UK. That would be covered under the UK's laws and not subject to any additional checks or levy as it leaves England/Scotland or Wales . But what then happens if that "Gift" is simply sent on from NI to SI? If there are no physical checks, what prevents goods simply being "exported" to the EU that way?

On a very small scale: nothing.

On a significant scale: you won’t find sufficient buyers at sufficient margin to make the chance of jail time worth it. IMO.

What are you thinking will be smuggled?

[vaud]

Max_Torque said:

Of course, but having a geographically area that operates under two different rules opens up a whole heap of loopholes that don't exist when the border is definitively delineated. For example, i send a gift to someone in NI, from within the UK. That would be covered under the UK's laws and not subject to any additional checks or levy as it leaves England/Scotland or Wales . But what then happens if that "Gift" is simply sent on from NI to SI? If there are no physical checks, what prevents goods simply being "exported" to the EU that way?

It's "noise" - just as people who live in Switzerland and shop in France for lower costs. There are occasional checks at borders (yes, even on shopping) but it is not a material issue. The same for people bringing 400 cigs from the Canary Islands instead of their limit of 200.

[dazwalsh]

As far as I can make out northern ireland have got an absolute belter of a deal.

So much so that the SNP are crying about their dear Scotland not getting the same deal. Well boohoo why don't you just ps off, especially you Blackford you big useless tuba of a mouth.

Sorry went off grid there for a second.

So someone run me through this consent lark, that's the bit I'm struggling with. They can cancel the alignment deal they have with the ROI after 4 years?

[abzmike]

dazwalsh said:

So much so that the SNP are crying about their dear Scotland not getting the same deal. Well boohoo why don't you just ps off, especially you Blackford you big useless tuba of a mouth.

Sorry went off grid there for a second.

So someone run me through this consent lark, that's the bit I'm struggling with. They can cancel the alignment deal they have with the ROI after 4 years?

Reasoned posting... hope that made you feel better....

[tumble dryer]

abzmike said:

dazwalsh said:

So much so that the SNP are crying about their dear Scotland not getting the same deal. Well boohoo why don't you just ps off, especially you Blackford you big useless tuba of a mouth.

Sorry went off grid there for a second.

So someone run me through this consent lark, that's the bit I'm struggling with. They can cancel the alignment deal they have with the ROI after 4 years?

Reasoned posting... hope that made you feel better....

It made me feel better, I had a chuckle!

[SpeckledJim]

dazwalsh said:

As far as I can make out northern ireland have got an absolute belter of a deal.

So much so that the SNP are crying about their dear Scotland not getting the same deal. Well boohoo why don't you just ps off, especially you Blackford you big useless tuba of a mouth.

Sorry went off grid there for a second.

So someone run me through this consent lark, that's the bit I'm struggling with. They can cancel the alignment deal they have with the ROI after 4 years?

Yes, but they would need to get their act together at Stormont and both communities need to agree on it.

So...

[nicanary]

The new deal won't be approved by Parliament, so all these posts are just conjecture.

(PS The DUP would say "no" if you gave them all £10bn each and immunity from any prosecution. They are professional Olympic gold standard "no" sayers.)

[Drew106]

I travel between England and NI maybe 3 to 4 times a year.

They don't usually check your ID. Last few flights and the ferry. Just your boarding pass or booking confirmation. On the ferry it was linked to my numberplate, so didn't have to produce anything.

I suspect that's not unusual given that we are traveling between two parts of the same country. However, that's going to have to change.

I said it before in joking, but the best solution here really is to take over Ireland again... Bring back the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

...or a United Ireland.

...or a Trump wall along the border.

...or just some s-hite messy no border, but still a border, border in Irish Sea, electronic checks. Whatever the proposal is. I've lost the will to care. Brexit fatigue, seems to be the new phrase being thrown about.

I vote we scrap Brexit and everyone in the country signs an agreement not to mention it ever again and pretend it didn't happen. Have a pint and wait for this all to blow over

[Mrr T]

Drew106 said:

I travel between England and NI maybe 3 to 4 times a year.

They don't usually check your ID. Last few flights and the ferry. Just your boarding pass or booking confirmation. On the ferry it was linked to my numberplate, so didn't have to produce anything.

I suspect that's not unusual given that we are traveling between two parts of the same country. However, that's going to have to change.

I said it before in joking, but the best solution here really is to take over Ireland again... Bring back the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

...or a United Ireland.

...or a Trump wall along the border.

...or just some s-hite messy no border, but still a border, border in Irish Sea, electronic checks. Whatever the proposal is. I've lost the will to care. Brexit fatigue, seems to be the new phrase being thrown about.

I vote we scrap Brexit and everyone in the country signs an agreement not to mention it ever again and pretend it didn't happen. Have a pint and wait for this all to blow over

Sorry but you do not seem to understand the agreement only relates to goods travelling between NI and the rUK not people.

So should be no change on air passengers might be some delays for ferry pasangers while lorries are checked. But I assume they will do as much as they can in transit.

[SpeckledJim]

Mrr T said:

Drew106 said:

I travel between England and NI maybe 3 to 4 times a year.

They don't usually check your ID. Last few flights and the ferry. Just your boarding pass or booking confirmation. On the ferry it was linked to my numberplate, so didn't have to produce anything.

I suspect that's not unusual given that we are traveling between two parts of the same country. However, that's going to have to change.

I said it before in joking, but the best solution here really is to take over Ireland again... Bring back the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

...or a United Ireland.

...or a Trump wall along the border.

...or just some s-hite messy no border, but still a border, border in Irish Sea, electronic checks. Whatever the proposal is. I've lost the will to care. Brexit fatigue, seems to be the new phrase being thrown about.

I vote we scrap Brexit and everyone in the country signs an agreement not to mention it ever again and pretend it didn't happen. Have a pint and wait for this all to blow over

Sorry but you do not seem to understand the agreement only relates to goods travelling between NI and the rUK not people.

So should be no change on air passengers might be some delays for ferry pasangers while lorries are checked. But I assume they will do as much as they can in transit.

Yeah, impact on people travelling on foot or in normal passenger vehicles will be zero-to-minimal.

[nicanary]

I sympathise with Drew106. An awful lot of people are now just so cheesed off they don't care any more. I would love an unknown civil servant to phone Brussels and reverse Article 50 and not tell anyone in the UK. Just stop the whole thing so there'd be no economic backlash but nobody would know abouit it. Just a permanent state of bickering in parliament. The one great thing about the row has been that the British people have had their eyes opened about the pathetic inadequacy of our so-called statesmen. We are now, and will be for years to come, the laughing stock of Europe.

Interesting that nobody has yet mentioned the loyalist threats about their reaction to an Irish Sea "border". By all accounts, it'll be Drumcree all over again. What larks!

[Lily the Pink]

Drew106 said:

I said it before in joking, but the best solution here really is to take over Ireland again... Bring back the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland

...or a United Ireland.

I'd prefer the latter; maybe then the Irish tail would stop wagging the British dog. Though the inheritors of the "Irish Free State" don't seem to be particularly able to exercise their freedom; they're like a needy, supposedly adult, child who has left home but still cannot manage without their parents.

[mattmurdock]

dazwalsh said:

As far as I can make out northern ireland have got an absolute belter of a deal.

So much so that the SNP are crying about their dear Scotland not getting the same deal. Well boohoo why don't you just ps off, especially you Blackford you big useless tuba of a mouth.

Sorry went off grid there for a second.

So someone run me through this consent lark, that's the bit I'm struggling with. They can cancel the alignment deal they have with the ROI after 4 years?

The consent mechanism is as follows:

1. Transition period to 31st Dec 2020, nothing changes
2. 4 years of alignment deal until 31st Dec 2024
3. In Oct 2024, a motion will be put to Stormont to consent to continue with the alignment deal
4. If a simple majority vote yes, deal continues until 31st Dec 2028, and in Oct 2028 they vote again
5. If a cross-community majority vote yes, deal continues until 31st Dec 2032, and in Oct 2032 they vote again
6. If there is no majority for yes, deal continues until 31st Dec 2026, and then we have a hard border if an alternative isn't found before then

Given the current makeup of the MLA, it is likely a majority will happen unless something drastic changes in NI.

[i4got]

mattmurdock said:

The consent mechanism is as follows:

1. Transition period to 31st Dec 2020, nothing changes
2. 4 years of alignment deal until 31st Dec 2024
3. In Oct 2024, a motion will be put to Stormont to consent to continue with the alignment deal
4. If a simple majority vote yes, deal continues until 31st Dec 2028, and in Oct 2028 they vote again
5. If a cross-community majority vote yes, deal continues until 31st Dec 2032, and in Oct 2032 they vote again
6. If there is no majority for yes, deal continues until 31st Dec 2026, and then we have a hard border if an alternative isn't found before then

Given the current makeup of the MLA, it is likely a majority will happen unless something drastic changes in NI.

Assuming that they are back at Stormont by then.

[mattmurdock]

i4got said:

Assuming that they are back at Stormont by then.

Well yes, although the UK statement on that is if they cannot table the motion in Stormont, alternative arrangements will be held for the MLA members to vote, and a majority of them will result in the deal continuing.

So it is not dependent on Stormont sitting.