The Irish border

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I bet Saint Theresa will be glad when it's all over and she can go back to running in wheat fields; certainly she has the toughest PM job since, since.....

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citizensm1th said:

Breadvan72 said:

Normans, who are of course Vikings really, Angevins, Hanoverians, and even some upstart Saxe-Coburgians.

You have no idea how glad I am that at least one other person on here understands dark age history and population migration in that era

The dark ages were after the departure of the Romans, not sure the Vikings figure in it, let alone the other peoples you mention. You are not having my last Rollo.

Re 'red-blooded Briton' it is a deliberately inclusive term, as was not my first but discarded choice of 'true-born Englishman', which can also be applied to Irishmen - must be true because the first Duke of Wellington said so.

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Eric Mc said:

So the film with Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis isn't accurate?

I am Vikingacus.

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Eric Mc said:

No, I'm Vikingacus (I come from a Viking town, by the way).

That is beyond the pale.

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Lord Marylebone said:

JagLover said:

Churchill said:

If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, she must always choose the open sea.

As I'm sure you know, that was a quote taken completely out of context, and rehashed along with other Churchill quotes to give something for Brexit supporters to share on social media.

It was something that Churchill shouted at De Gaulle during a blazing row in the middle of the war, regarding D Day landings, it was nothing to do with Europe per se.

If you wish to read all about that quote and other quotes by Churchill on Europe, then this is quite good:

http://jondanzig.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/winston-ch...

If we are going with British heroic leader quotes, I prefer Nelson:

"There are three things, young gentlemen, which you are constantly to bear in mind. Firstly, you must always implicitly obey orders, without attempting to form any opinion of your own respecting their propriety. Secondly, you must consider every man your enemy who speaks ill of your king; and thirdly, you must hate a Frenchman, as you do the devil."

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SystemParanoia said:

Just leave the Irish border open and Let the EU build the border.

then the irish can get mad at them instead of each other for once

This is my solution too.

Open border. Let's move on to trade talks. Who is going to object?


And, if down the road, it is not working, there are problems, too many immigrants are swimming across the Irish Sea or doing nothing good in NI, we can fix them later, once we are out and have no need to kowtow to the EU.

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slow_poke said:

Ayahuasca said:

Open border. Let's move on to trade talks. Who is going to object?

All these pages and you still don't get it?

Ireland's going to object. No trade talks till you satisfy Ireland.
You're not going to satisfy Ireland with ill-thought out, wishy-washy aspirational non-starter verbiage.

What will the Irish be less satisfied with - an open border, or tariffs on their goods exported to the UK, which is their second biggest market in the world.

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Eric Mc said:

mike9009 said:

Why was the Irish border issue not discussed at this depth during or by the referendum campaign? Was it too complex or not headline grabbing enough?


Mike

Because it was "Ireland" - and Brits rarely consider Ireland (even though they still own a chunk of it) until they are made to confront it.

In some ways the relationship between the UK and Ireland would be easier if the UK treated the ROI like a fully foreign country instead of considering it like some estranged and less well off family member as it does now. The UK gives far more consideration to the ROI than it does to, say, Iceland. That could stop. So a proper hard border, no special rights for Irish citizens in the U.K., tariffs on Irish imports, and if there are terrorists, squash them.

Alternatively, the U.K. could support the reunification of Ireland, and the whole thing - including keeping the peace between different Irish people - becomes Dublin's responsibility. I suspect that most of the rest of the UK would not have a problem with that.

This push-me pull-you compromise and appeasement, trying to be liked by all sides and ending up being hated by all sides, does not seem to be working and I marvel that the rest of the UK puts up with it.

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Hackney said:

Eric Mc said:

mike9009 said:

Why was the Irish border issue not discussed at this depth during or by the referendum campaign? Was it too complex or not headline grabbing enough?


Mike

Because it was "Ireland" - and Brits rarely consider Ireland (even though they still own a chunk of it) until they are made to confront it.

Because the whole referendum was "debated" on immigration, "taking back control", a number on a bus and blue passports.
Leave focused on that and ignored the actual issues brexit would cause, Remain were too busy going "what the fk, stop being so racist" that they didn't engage with anyone's actual issues.

That is a pretty patronising view of why leavers voted to leave. The overwhelming question was, do we want to be an independent country or not? Everything else, including the Irish border, was secondary to that question.

And the passports were never blue anyway. They were black.

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Eric Mc said:

It may have been secondary to SOME British people's minds, but it was pretty much paramount to those who live in Northern Ireland (who are British, don't forget) - so don't be so patronising and dismissive towards them.

I am not being patronising or dismissive towards our NI brethren; but you are in danger of forgetting that around 44% of NI voted 'leave', so it was not 'paramount' to about half of NI residents - so don't be so quick to include them all on your side!

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Eric Mc said:

t the re-introduction of old fashioned border and customs posts in Ireland would be disastrous for that country.

Not sure if that phrasing is deliberate Eric, but your wording seems to betray a mindset that 'Ireland' is one country split by a border. There are two separate countries divided by a border. Apols if I am misinterpreting you.

I am having porridge as I type - steel cut, made with water, with added milk, salt, raisins, prunes and walnuts.

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Well, the Teashock (I have anglicised the title, hope nobody minds) has had his five minutes in the sun, and his bolt is shot, and his horse has bolted, and his cards have been laid on the table. Unless he gets a veto on the final EU deal, he is done, powerless, as a beached whale gasping on the sand, as a submarine gone past it's crush depth. Proud Longshanks (sorry, the English prime minister) will soon power up the Death Star and lay waste his domains and smite his crops.

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Halmyre said:

slow_poke said:

Because Ireland is the soft underbelly of GB.

Dotted all around the coast of Ireland are watchtowers and lookout posts built by the British to defend against the French (Napoleonic times) and the Germans (WW1.
Same fear existed in WW2). It was a real fear that foreign powers would invade Ireland as a back door to invading GB.

Benefit of hindsight I know, but if the Germans couldn't get across 22 miles of the English Channel, they definitely couldn't get 10 times (at least) that distance to Ireland, and then have to do it all over again across the Irish Sea.

The British managed to get an army across 8,000 miles of ocean in '82.

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If you wish to upset an Irishman (I mean upset one deliberately; it is all too easy to upset one my accident, but that is not what I mean), then all you need do is remind him that the Republic of Ireland is - and always will be - part of the British Isles.

You may, however, then need to claim that you have a heart condition and that your wife is having a baby.

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jsf said:

Eric Mc said:

There are some genuine historical and sporting reasons why this is so. In the early days of the modern Olympic period, Ireland entered its own team (covering all of Ireland) at a time when Ireland was completely part of the UK.

Apart from the obvious non-Brits who have represented Team GB, those who hail from the Channel Islands are also not part of the UK or GB but are eligible to be in Team GB.

Britain's most important and longest lasting "Special Relationship" is not with the US, but with Ireland.

According to the IOC, the first year Ireland has entered a team is 1924, there is no record of Ireland before that, even unofficially, entering a team in its own right.

Britain's longest lasting special relationship is with Portugal. Its the oldest alliance treaty still in force today (Treaty of Windsor), it was signed in 1386 and ratified the earlier treaty basis signed in 1373.

The Portugal treaty may still be in force, but it is not older than the England - Ireland agreement of 1169 when Irish king Dermot MacMurrough asked English King Henry II to send troops over to help him fight another Irish king. So British soldiers have been trying to stop different tribes of Irishmen killing each other for 848 years.

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A major reason the border is an issue is the veiled threat of terrorism. Funny how a terrorist in the Middle East can expect an incoming Hellfire missile but one in Ireland can expect to be appeased. I don't expect any U.K. PM to authorise missile strikes on U.K. soil, but I suspect that a 'shoot to kill' policy against terrorist suspects would be perfectly acceptable in the current anti-terrorist climate. Hope those who threaten a return to violence keep this in mind.

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Any reference, in this border discussion, to 'the Good Friday Agreement' contains within it the germ of a threat of a return to violence.

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davepoth said:

Eric Mc said:

And it's not normally required at land border crossings or ferry crossings.

https://www.irishferries.com/ie-en/frequently-asked-questions/top-10-faqs/passports-identification/

https://www.stenaline.co.uk/faqs/passports-and-vis...

Some form of ID is required - and a passport is required if you aren't British or Irish.

A little known dodge if you are an expat who has 'used up' all their days in the UK and is in danger of becoming a UK taxpayer, but who wants to spend more time in the UK, is to fly from abroad into the ROI (using normal UK passport) then cross into the UK using say a UK driving licence. Result: HMRC has no way of tracing UK entry.

A friend told me about this, not wholly convinced but it is apparently used a lot.

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citizensm1th said:

In my view full of people who claim to be British as long as we spunk billions of pounds on them keeping their economy afloat.

Well, if you are going to use that argument, London and the South East of England keeps the rest of Great Britain afloat. It is the only region of the UK that pays more in taxes than is spent on it.

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So as the EU is committed to preserving peace in Ireland, and the spirit of the GFA - will it make visitors who cross the border into the Republic exempt from its £6 EU entry fee?