Another prove your innocence case
Discussion
Thorodin said:
Breadvan72 said:
Those wicked feminists are everywhere! If only women would know their place, we would not have these difficulties, eh? Police officers, prosecutors and Judges say that the system is under funded, but you know better, based on your extensive experience of, er... the internet?
In this case, the adversarial system produced an acquittal of an innocent man. What would you prefer?
Yes, exactly as expected! Mockery, diversion and exaggeration! Makes my point all the more relevant. Thanks for that. You have absolutely no idea of my experience in anything, but I can recognise rudeness.In this case, the adversarial system produced an acquittal of an innocent man. What would you prefer?
saaby93 said:
That's probably the best way of looking at that graph
However there may be a missing middle line showing the number placed before courts
Going back to this case - why do many people assume he was going to be found guilty without the disc?
What evidence supports that?
Without the disc, would you say the defendants chances of being found guilty However there may be a missing middle line showing the number placed before courts
Going back to this case - why do many people assume he was going to be found guilty without the disc?
What evidence supports that?
were enhanced or decreased?
XCP said:
I sometimes envy the sheltered lives that some people apparently lead. Was it Basil Fawlty who, when accused of being rude, replied 'I haven't started yet'.
To paraphrase F E Smith, I'm only ever rude on purpose.The point about sheltered lives is a good one. If you are at least moderately affluent, live in a provincial town or village, and obtain your news from tabloids you may have a very skewed view of the world.
Breadvan72 said:
Those wicked feminists are everywhere! If only women would know their place, we would not have these difficulties, eh? Police officers, prosecutors and Judges say that the system is under funded, but you know better, based on your extensive experience of, er... the internet?
In this case, the adversarial system produced an acquittal of an innocent man. What would you prefer?
The feminist influence on sex cases is the fact victims (mainly women) are allowed to be anonymous whilst those who are charged (but not yet convicted) can be named. This isn’t the only case in recent weeks and months where young men have been found not guilty of rape but have suffered from having their identities made public. In this case, the adversarial system produced an acquittal of an innocent man. What would you prefer?
The argument for sustaining this is that it may prevent other females from coming forward if they are named in a case, plus by naming the man other women might come forward too. The approach is gynocentric and takes no account of the damage innocent men suffer.
The simple thing of course would be to allow anonymity for both parties in sex cases until conviction, but that would defeat one aspect of the approach. So men get hung out to dry because of feminist ideology.
You are making a mistake by conflating feminists and feminism with women. Feminism is a political ideology with various aims ranging from equality to supremacy for women, depending upon what you read. Interestingly not even feminists agree on definition of the term feminism.
Whatever it is only 7% of women in the U.K. identify themselves as feminists. Women are not the problem, ideology is.
I was curious to an earlier comment you made, something like “this is still a mans world”. I presume you are making that comment from the perspective of a man in a good job, educated, resourced, Etc, and are assuming that all men are of course the same as you?
Whilst men do dominate in the top jobs across the spectrum, what is frequently overlooked is that they also are over represented in the low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs. You can not compare the lives of a few exceptional men with the majority who are not. Feminism never campaigns for equality on low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs of course, the fact men dominate in these jobs is just an inconvenient fact to be ignored like so many others.
And with men being disadvantaged across the education system ( in 2017, application rates via UCAS for men and women were 32.5% and 44.0% respectively. Entry rates were 27.8% and 37.7% for men and women respectively. The number of women exceeded the number of men by 36% as regards both applications and entry), 4 to 1 suicide rates (biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide but according to the nursing times not a single penny has been spent to find out why this should be), around 95% of deaths at work are men, around 75% of homeless are men, men are more likely to be NEET, involved in substance abuse and crime, are twice as likely to be a victim of violence, the gender gap in life time pay is down to the choices women and girls make rather than discrimination (see preference theory for example), men die earlier than women, have less spent on them in the NHS (I believe for every £8 spent on female specific conditions only £1 is spent on male specific conditions, but happy to be corrected).
Despite men being around 40% of victims in DV, there is little to support men even if they report it and are then taken seriously by police and CPS. The government recently announced another £100 million for support to women and girl victims of DV, but despite serious service shortcomings for men, nothing has been provided to improve mens DV services.
I work with a lot of police officers up to the rank of supt. from forces across the country. I always ask about thier DV policy and training, and with the exception of one force (Durham) I am told that their forces thrust is that men are perpetrators and women are victims, with DV training being led by women’s interests groups rather than a neutral approach. Of course the dozens I work with a year is only a small proportion of officers and the real situation in their force might be different - maybe you can tel me how many cases of male victims of DV arise and are prosecuted, is it around 40% of all DV cases?
The ONS claim that women make the decisions in around 80% of married households, especially those decisions that are of a financial nature - men may make more money but generally women spend it, in other words.
For clarity I’m not an MRA but I have worked with men who suffer from lots of these disadvantages and have seen the impact on them and their families personally. Very little support for them and very little sympathy from authorities.
Interestingly research shows that the people least likely to stand up for disadvantaged men are other men, especially if those men are of a higher status (job, pay, etc) than the men who suffer. That is certainly the case on PH.
I can go on but I’m curious as to despite all this male privilege, what do you think makes it a mans world in the U.K. ?
Edited by steveatesh on Sunday 17th December 11:40
steveatesh said:
The feminist influence on sex cases is the fact victims (mainly women) are allowed to be anonymous whilst those who are charged (but not yet convicted) can be named.
Very useful rest of post but at the beginning youve fallen into the same trap as the CPS earlier Its either alleged victims or complainants that are anonymous and cant normally have their previous history discussed
the case has to stand on its own merit
and
defendants ( who could be victims) who arent anonymous and can have their history put before the court
the case can be put together as multiples
The first is important in this case,as shown on the mumsnet thread
Although she fantasised about being raped and acted out the fantasy and let her friends know
its said that shouldnt be disclosed as she may have been raped in this instance and it should stand on its own
Edited by saaby93 on Sunday 17th December 12:08
steveatesh said:
...
I can go on but I’m curious as to despite all this male privilege, what do you think makes it a mans world in the U.K. ?
I am not sure that your question is serious. For someone who isn't an MRA, you seem awfully like an MRA.I can go on but I’m curious as to despite all this male privilege, what do you think makes it a mans world in the U.K. ?
How about -
9% pay gap.
Women at Chair and CEO level - about 7% of the total.,
Under one third of MPs are women.
Ambitious women are "pushy", "bossy", "abrasive", and may be "b
hes" or "ballbreakers". Ambitious men are "leaders"and "strivers".
And so on.
Edited by anonymous-user on Sunday 17th December 12:00
Breadvan72 said:
I am not sure that your question is serious. For someone who isn't an MRA, you seem awfully like an MRA.
How about -
9% pay gap.
Women at Chair and CEO level - about 7% of the total.,
Under one third of MPs are women.
Ambitious women are "pushy", "bossy", "abrasive", and may be "bhes" or "ballbreakers". Ambitious men are "leaders"
and "strivers".
And so on.
Maybe you didn’t read what I said.How about -
9% pay gap.
Women at Chair and CEO level - about 7% of the total.,
Under one third of MPs are women.
Ambitious women are "pushy", "bossy", "abrasive", and may be "b
hes" or "ballbreakers". Ambitious men are "leaders"and "strivers".
And so on.
Pay gap is down to women and girls life choices rather than discrimination. In fact they get paid more than men up to the age of around 30 when those choices kick in.
Yes men are over represented in top jobs which I said, but see point about pay gap, it’s down to choices women and girls make in life. See preference theory for more.
As I said above whilst men dominate in top jobs, they also do in the very bottom jobs, hardly a sign of a mans world.
No, I’m not an MRA, but I have an interest in an equal society and arguing for action to be taken in the areas of society where men are disadvantaged does not make me an MRA, just somebody who has noticed and cares because of the harm to individuals and families I’ve seen caused. By your view of course, the claims you make could make you a feminist or mangina.... are you either of those perhaps?
Quite simply equality is not a competition between men and women, women have issues and so do men. Women’s issues tend to be addressed by society whilst men’s are rarely even acknowledged (you are an example of this) let alone addressed.
In the case in question clearly a feminist agenda was part of the problem, the part about the mans identy being made public when he had bit been convicted.
Thanks for providing your “evidence”, I trust you disclosed it all!
steveatesh said:
The feminist influence on sex cases is the fact victims (mainly women) are allowed to be anonymous whilst those who are charged (but not yet convicted) can be named. This isn’t the only case in recent weeks and months where young men have been found not guilty of rape but have suffered from having their identities made public.
The argument for sustaining this is that it may prevent other females from coming forward if they are named in a case, plus by naming the man other women might come forward too. The approach is gynocentric and takes no account of the damage innocent men suffer.
The simple thing of course would be to allow anonymity for both parties in sex cases until conviction, but that would defeat one aspect of the approach. So men get hung out to dry because of feminist ideology.
You are making a mistake by conflating feminists and feminism with women. Feminism is a political ideology with various aims ranging from equality to supremacy for women, depending upon what you read. Interestingly not even feminists agree on definition of the term feminism.
Whatever it is only 7% of women in the U.K. identify themselves as feminists. Women are not the problem, ideology is.
I was curious to an earlier comment you made, something like “this is still a mans world”. I presume you are making that comment from the perspective of a man in a good job, educated, resourced, Etc, and are assuming that all men are of course the same as you?
Whilst men do dominate in the top jobs across the spectrum, what is frequently overlooked is that they also are over represented in the low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs. You can not compare the lives of a few exceptional men with the majority who are not. Feminism never campaigns for equality on low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs of course, the fact men dominate in these jobs is just an inconvenient fact to be ignored like so many others.
And with men being disadvantaged across the education system ( in 2017, application rates via UCAS for men and women were 32.5% and 44.0% respectively. Entry rates were 27.8% and 37.7% for men and women respectively. The number of women exceeded the number of men by 36% as regards both applications and entry), 4 to 1 suicide rates (biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide but according to the nursing times not a single penny has been spent to find out why this should be), around 95% of deaths at work are men, around 75% of homeless are men, men are more likely to be NEET, involved in substance abuse and crime, are twice as likely to be a victim of violence, the gender gap in life time pay is down to the choices women and girls make rather than discrimination (see preference theory for example), men die earlier than women, have less spent on them in the NHS (I believe for every £8 spent on female specific conditions only £1 is spent on male specific conditions, but happy to be corrected).
Despite men being around 40% of victims in DV, there is little to support men even if they report it and are then taken seriously by police and CPS. The government recently announced another £100 million for support to women and girl victims of DV, but despite serious service shortcomings for men, nothing has been provided to improve mens DV services.
I work with a lot of police officers up to the rank of supt. from forces across the country. I always ask about thier DV policy and training, and with the exception of one force (Durham) I am told that their forces thrust is that men are perpetrators and women are victims, with DV training being led by women’s interests groups rather than a neutral approach. Of course the dozens I work with a year is only a small proportion of officers and the real situation in their force might be different - maybe you can tel me how many cases of male victims of DV arise and are prosecuted, is it around 40% of all DV cases?
The ONS claim that women make the decisions in around 80% of married households, especially those decisions that are of a financial nature - men may make more money but generally women spend it, in other words.
For clarity I’m not an MRA but I have worked with men who suffer from lots of these disadvantages and have seen the impact on them and their families personally. Very little support for them and very little sympathy from authorities.
Interestingly research shows that the people least likely to stand up for disadvantaged men are other men, especially if those men are of a higher status (job, pay, etc) than the men who suffer. That is certainly the case on PH.
I can go on but I’m curious as to despite all this male privilege, what do you think makes it a mans world in the U.K. ?
Excellent post. As a victim of both DV and false and malicious allegations (twice) I agree 100%.The argument for sustaining this is that it may prevent other females from coming forward if they are named in a case, plus by naming the man other women might come forward too. The approach is gynocentric and takes no account of the damage innocent men suffer.
The simple thing of course would be to allow anonymity for both parties in sex cases until conviction, but that would defeat one aspect of the approach. So men get hung out to dry because of feminist ideology.
You are making a mistake by conflating feminists and feminism with women. Feminism is a political ideology with various aims ranging from equality to supremacy for women, depending upon what you read. Interestingly not even feminists agree on definition of the term feminism.
Whatever it is only 7% of women in the U.K. identify themselves as feminists. Women are not the problem, ideology is.
I was curious to an earlier comment you made, something like “this is still a mans world”. I presume you are making that comment from the perspective of a man in a good job, educated, resourced, Etc, and are assuming that all men are of course the same as you?
Whilst men do dominate in the top jobs across the spectrum, what is frequently overlooked is that they also are over represented in the low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs. You can not compare the lives of a few exceptional men with the majority who are not. Feminism never campaigns for equality on low paid, dirty and dangerous jobs of course, the fact men dominate in these jobs is just an inconvenient fact to be ignored like so many others.
And with men being disadvantaged across the education system ( in 2017, application rates via UCAS for men and women were 32.5% and 44.0% respectively. Entry rates were 27.8% and 37.7% for men and women respectively. The number of women exceeded the number of men by 36% as regards both applications and entry), 4 to 1 suicide rates (biggest killer of men under 45 is suicide but according to the nursing times not a single penny has been spent to find out why this should be), around 95% of deaths at work are men, around 75% of homeless are men, men are more likely to be NEET, involved in substance abuse and crime, are twice as likely to be a victim of violence, the gender gap in life time pay is down to the choices women and girls make rather than discrimination (see preference theory for example), men die earlier than women, have less spent on them in the NHS (I believe for every £8 spent on female specific conditions only £1 is spent on male specific conditions, but happy to be corrected).
Despite men being around 40% of victims in DV, there is little to support men even if they report it and are then taken seriously by police and CPS. The government recently announced another £100 million for support to women and girl victims of DV, but despite serious service shortcomings for men, nothing has been provided to improve mens DV services.
I work with a lot of police officers up to the rank of supt. from forces across the country. I always ask about thier DV policy and training, and with the exception of one force (Durham) I am told that their forces thrust is that men are perpetrators and women are victims, with DV training being led by women’s interests groups rather than a neutral approach. Of course the dozens I work with a year is only a small proportion of officers and the real situation in their force might be different - maybe you can tel me how many cases of male victims of DV arise and are prosecuted, is it around 40% of all DV cases?
The ONS claim that women make the decisions in around 80% of married households, especially those decisions that are of a financial nature - men may make more money but generally women spend it, in other words.
For clarity I’m not an MRA but I have worked with men who suffer from lots of these disadvantages and have seen the impact on them and their families personally. Very little support for them and very little sympathy from authorities.
Interestingly research shows that the people least likely to stand up for disadvantaged men are other men, especially if those men are of a higher status (job, pay, etc) than the men who suffer. That is certainly the case on PH.
I can go on but I’m curious as to despite all this male privilege, what do you think makes it a mans world in the U.K. ?
Edited by steveatesh on Sunday 17th December 11:40
The police are inherently sexist and I will never have any respect for them ever again.
Breadvan72 said:
Wow. Just wow,
The Stone Age rang. They want their ideas back.
Not an MRA? Yeah right.
Lawyer rule no: 153 -The Stone Age rang. They want their ideas back.
Not an MRA? Yeah right.
If you can't attack the evidence, attack the witness.
It wears thin sometimes.
The guy has made some very valid points.
You are not always right.
Nobody is - and those who think they know it all are often the dumbest of all.
I generally like/ agree/ thank you for your posts on this forum.
You are clearly a very well educated and well informed dude in certain areas.
But listening to and accepting the view point/ experience of others does not appear to be one of your strong points.
Breadvan72 said:
steveatesh said:
...
Pay gap is down to women and girls life choices rather than discrimination.
...
Wow. Just wow, Pay gap is down to women and girls life choices rather than discrimination.
...
The Stone Age rang. They want their ideas back.
Not an MRA? Yeah right.
In general:
Men choose to work longer hours than women choose to. Men choose to take less holidays. Men also choose more lucrative professions, which can also involve more stress, which women prefer to avoid. Most women at some point in their lives will at least once take a long period off work to have a baby, putting them about a year behind their male equivalent in career development.
This is IN GENERAL, not EVERY SINGLE WOMAN - before anyone comes in with individual anecdotes about their wife/sister/mother/friend.
It could be summarised as women have a better work-life balance than men choose. However, you only get paid for the work part.
Red 4 said:
Breadvan72 said:
Wow. Just wow,
The Stone Age rang. They want their ideas back.
Not an MRA? Yeah right.
Lawyer rule no: 153 -The Stone Age rang. They want their ideas back.
Not an MRA? Yeah right.
If you can't attack the evidence, attack the witness.
It wears thin sometimes.
The guy has made some very valid points.
You are not always right.
Nobody is - and those who think they know it all are often the dumbest of all.
I generally like/ agree/ thank you for your posts on this forum.
You are clearly a very well educated and well informed dude in certain areas.
But listening to and accepting the view point/ experience of others does not appear to be one of your strong points.
saaby93 said:
Maybe so - but BV does tend to put forward the type of thing you'll find in court
Clearly, you haven't spent much time in court.I like Breadvan.
He's clearly very good at his job/ well informed in many areas/ humorous/ blah blah blah ....
He's certainly got a bit of a fan club on here.
Sometimes though .....
Venturist said:
Eh?
In general:
Men choose to work longer hours than women choose to. Men choose to take less holidays. Men also choose more lucrative professions, which can also involve more stress, which women prefer to avoid. Most women at some point in their lives will at least once take a long period off work to have a baby, putting them about a year behind their male equivalent in career development.
This is IN GENERAL, not EVERY SINGLE WOMAN - before anyone comes in with individual anecdotes about their wife/sister/mother/friend.
It could be summarised as women have a better work-life balance than men choose. However, you only get paid for the work part.
+1In general:
Men choose to work longer hours than women choose to. Men choose to take less holidays. Men also choose more lucrative professions, which can also involve more stress, which women prefer to avoid. Most women at some point in their lives will at least once take a long period off work to have a baby, putting them about a year behind their male equivalent in career development.
This is IN GENERAL, not EVERY SINGLE WOMAN - before anyone comes in with individual anecdotes about their wife/sister/mother/friend.
It could be summarised as women have a better work-life balance than men choose. However, you only get paid for the work part.
Incidentally women under 30 (who generally haven't taken maternity leave yet) earn the same as men (actually fractionally more) and get promoted faster.
https://iea.org.uk/media/equal-pay-day-calculation...
Edited by Dr Jekyll on Sunday 17th December 13:09
steveatesh said:
The feminist influence on sex cases is the fact victims (mainly women) are allowed to be anonymous whilst those who are charged (but not yet convicted) can be named. This isn’t the only case in recent weeks and months where young men have been found not guilty of rape but have suffered from having their identities made public.
It's the same for both genders, both in terms of being complainant / someone accused. It's not the fault of women that men commit the vast majority of sexual offences. If you look at the reasoning and evidence as to what lead to Special Measures being created, I don't think you'll find much evidence of 'feminist influence'.
Do you have any or is it just that it makes sense for you so you think it's true?
steveatesh said:
The argument for sustaining this is that it may revent other females from coming forward if they are named in a case, plus by naming the man other women might come forward too. The approach is gynocentric and takes no account of the damage innocent men suffer.
The primary argument isn't that other victims may come forward. Most sexual offences are singular victims and non-stranger. The accused would be named regardless of the anonymity of the complainant so the former doesn't need to take it into account.
steveatesh said:
I work with a lot of police officers up to the rank of supt. from forces across the country. I always ask about thier DV policy and training, and with the exception of one force (Durham) I am told that their forces thrust is that men are perpetrators and women are victims, with DV training being led by women’s interests groups rather than a neutral approach. Of course the dozens I work with a year is only a small proportion of officers and the real situation in their force might be different - maybe you can tel me how many cases of male victims of DV arise and are prosecuted, is it around 40% of all DV cases?
DA (domestic abuse, not domestic violence) has a national lead which coordinates policies and practices across the country. That you think one force is different should ring alarm bells. I've never known any 'women's interest groups' leading any police training. I can see how believing that would help support you concluding a 'feminist agenda' is the cause and effect.
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