Another prove your innocence case

[saaby93]

Jockman said:

Thanks for the link, Steve.

"Over 75% of 11–12 year old boys thought it was acceptable that men hit women if
they make them angry and more boys than girls, of all ages, believe that some
women deserve to be hit ....."

WTF?

It's a survey - where's Yipper again
Isnt it like the survey where you ask how many boys have sex, then ask how many girls
boys over report, girls under, in practice both about the same

[saaby93]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42758123

beeb said:

diary found supporting his case

How many other cases that didnt have the luxury of a diary somewhere?

Theyve got to stop this process of first presume guilt, second anything to demonstrate innocence
Presume innocence , anything to demonstrate guilt

[saaby93]

cookie118 said:

How many independant accounts do you expect to gain of a rape or an alleged rape?

And when rape victims are not believed this is what happens:
https://deadspin.com/for-20-years-gymnasts-said-th...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Worboys

No that's not it at all
If there's enough evidence to convict, it will stack up
If the evidence isnt there it wont

The system has to be biased in such a way that if it's not clear, a guilty person goes free, rather than an innocent is locked up, as seems to be where it was headed in these cases.

Otherwise you can end up with a system where you just lock up everyone on the basis that amongst them someone must be guilty of something

[saaby93]

cookie118 said:

And yet less than 11 cases collapsing over a period of a month has been met with massive media attention in the past few weeks.

Of course it's met media and other attention
The question that follows is how many people are behind bars on the same basis?
Hopefully there wont be many as the courts will have added to the alleged poor conviction rate

[saaby93]

cookie118 said:

However saaby is saying

If you want to play the game of saying someone has said something they havent just to create some argument, there's a new youtube video on it first posted in the BBC pay thread
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cls8ZURQRK4

[saaby93]

Moonhawk said:

I'm not sure I agree.

A justice system that is pursuing quotas rather than justice is not fit for purpose and as such fails both the victims of rape - and the victims of malicious false allegations.

How can we even begin to address the problems of low conviction rates in genuine rape cases if we don't have a justice system that is fit for purpose?

To be fair, I'm not sure how the courts can get involved in this
Unless the whole thing is videoed you have two people, with contrary opinions of the sequence.
As soon as you you use beyond reasonable doubt most cases must surely go out the window - how do you prove otherwise?
You cant go on who gives the best version in court

Look at the footballer case about 12months ago where it was thrown out on appeal because the lady involved seemed to enjoy similar things with other suitors. It doesnt mean the case in question wasnt upholdable, but the appeal found it too similar

System of justice? What type?

[saaby93]

Theyre still apologising for not having disclosed the evidence to prove innocence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42873618
But not saying why without that he would be assumed to be guilty

[saaby93]

Slightly different one here but same principle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42790...
What is it about the original evidence that seems strong enough to suggest guilt and the victim ( of these episodes) has to try to prove their innocence?

[saaby93]

and another
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42892530
All of these are where by chance some evidence has been found and disclosed to show innocence and the case collapses
How many cases where such evidence isnt available?

[saaby93]

Moonhawk said:

Has this one been posted?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5491241/boy-cleared-...

My question is, in some of these cases, it's clear the allegations were false/malicious - so why aren't the women/girls in question being prosecuted for perverting the course of justice or wasting police time?

Expelled from school on basis of the allegations
How does that affect the rest of your life?
At what point are things going to change so the witch hunt begins after youre found guilty rather than before?

[saaby93]

Which way is this one going to go?
http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/view,sti...

[saaby93]

amusingduck said:

saaby93 said:

Which way is this one going to go?

http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/view,sti...

-
http://www.rotherhamadvertiser.co.uk/news/view,rap...

If this article is accurate, he'd better walk free.

Our memories are way too unreliable to convict somebody based solely on that. Especially after 10+ years.

10 year old memories do not constitute credible evidence, no matter how sure she feels about it. I hope she can find peace, but you cannot throw a man in jail without sufficient, objective, evidence.

Surely there must be more to it than that though, as it wouldnt have got past the CPS public interest test
If you have someone say 'it was him that did <choose crime> 10 years ago' and he says 'It wasnt me'
what other evidence do you need?

[saaby93]

What about this one based on allegations
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43065165
No need to rerun the whole story found in another thread

[saaby93]

What about this one
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-431...
Sets up a fictitious 14 yr old to trap people - he's outed on social media - goes for suicide as the only way out.

[saaby93]

techguyone said:

Mixed feelings, on one hand it's good that an 'alleged' paedophile will be questioned and dealt with, got no problem with that.

The police too, don't seem to be discouraging these groups of people and there's a fair bit of publicity in the news etc about them.

Then again...

Borderline vigilantism is that ever a good thing? especially when the brain cell challenged of Facebook get a sniff, you're pretty much there with torches and pitchforks territory then.

I'm quite surprised that people still get caught like this given all the publicity you'd have thought anyone with half a brain would steer clear of chatrooms where anyone could be well, anybody really.

So yea... mixed feelings

The problem is we dont know how the trap was set up and what happened, and it hasnt been before a court to prove one way or the other
At what point was he told about age, and at that point was he in friendship mode or had he been strung along
You only have to see reports of people losing their life savings, how they can be taken in.
But assumed guilty, by quite a few

[saaby93]

StottyGTR said:

saaby93 said:

techguyone said:

Mixed feelings, on one hand it's good that an 'alleged' paedophile will be questioned and dealt with, got no problem with that.

The police too, don't seem to be discouraging these groups of people and there's a fair bit of publicity in the news etc about them.

Then again...

Borderline vigilantism is that ever a good thing? especially when the brain cell challenged of Facebook get a sniff, you're pretty much there with torches and pitchforks territory then.

I'm quite surprised that people still get caught like this given all the publicity you'd have thought anyone with half a brain would steer clear of chatrooms where anyone could be well, anybody really.

So yea... mixed feelings

The problem is we dont know how the trap was set up and what happened, and it hasnt been before a court to prove one way or the other
At what point was he told about age, and at that point was he in friendship mode or had he been strung along
You only have to see reports of people losing their life savings, how they can be taken in.
But assumed guilty, by quite a few

The Police are working with these groups now to ensure they aren't setting up traps. The alleged makes the moves.
I don't think its a good thing he committed suicide, but I'm glad these groups are about and outing people, providing they do it the proper way.

Inverse grooming aside, is there an offence?

[saaby93]

Better add this one
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-43174235


Guy allegedly touches girl in supermarket
Luckily CCTV supplied late says no
Where would he be without the CCTV
If there was no CCTV would he be locked up now? Is there a presumption of guilt?
He's still suspended from work

[saaby93]

What about this one

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-433745...

Couple have been convicted, the guy for causing brain injury to daughter, the woman for not taking her for treatment
He asserts at the inquest that the jury came to the wrong conclusion
She's already said the girl fell down stairs chasing a puppy and didnt think more of it
With no-else there how do you convict? or prove your innocence?

[saaby93]

techguyone said:

It's a big thing at the moment with details not being made available at all or very very late to the Defence, CPS chasing targets...

It shouldnt matter
Whats happened there is the guy is presumed guilty and the cctv gets him off
What should happen is that he's presumed innocent and the cctv convicts
Assume there is no cctv. Is he automatically guilty?

[saaby93]

This one the courts found them not guilty, presumed innocent
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-43581569
but twitter doesnt believe it

How do so many people know how to use hashtags?