Another prove your innocence case

[Stan the Bat]

Reporting a rape , or any other offence that didn't happen is "wasting police time".

I know of people who went to prison for reporting a false rape.

[anonymous-user]

Moonhawk said:

It doesn't matter how many innocent men you bang up - unless you are successfully prosecuting actual rapists, this situation will never change.

By hiding or omitting evidence - all the police are doing is clogging up the courts with non-genuine cases, spreading already thin resources even thinner and muddying the waters between genuine cases of rape and false allegations.

I can't see how that is of any benefit to the police or courts (unless the aim is to simply massage the conviction rate and deflect criticism that 'not enough is being done')......and it certainly doesn't benefit genuine rape victims.

I don't disagree with any of that, but equally I think that the reaction to the recent events is way out of proportion to the way we treat rape as a problem in society, which I don't think helps the situation at all.

[Moonhawk]

cookie118 said:

I don't disagree with any of that, but equally I think that the reaction to the recent events is way out of proportion to the way we treat rape as a problem in society, which I don't think helps the situation at all.

I'm not sure I agree.

A justice system that is pursuing quotas rather than justice is not fit for purpose and as such fails both the victims of rape - and the victims of malicious false allegations.

How can we even begin to address the problems of low conviction rates in genuine rape cases if we don't have a justice system that is fit for purpose?

[saaby93]

Moonhawk said:

I'm not sure I agree.

A justice system that is pursuing quotas rather than justice is not fit for purpose and as such fails both the victims of rape - and the victims of malicious false allegations.

How can we even begin to address the problems of low conviction rates in genuine rape cases if we don't have a justice system that is fit for purpose?

To be fair, I'm not sure how the courts can get involved in this
Unless the whole thing is videoed you have two people, with contrary opinions of the sequence.
As soon as you you use beyond reasonable doubt most cases must surely go out the window - how do you prove otherwise?
You cant go on who gives the best version in court

Look at the footballer case about 12months ago where it was thrown out on appeal because the lady involved seemed to enjoy similar things with other suitors. It doesnt mean the case in question wasnt upholdable, but the appeal found it too similar

System of justice? What type?

[anonymous-user]

saaby93 said:

To be fair, I'm not sure how the courts can get involved in this
Unless the whole thing is videoed you have two people, with contrary opinions of the sequence.
As soon as you you use beyond reasonable doubt most cases must surely go out the window - how do you prove otherwise?
You cant go on who gives the best version in court

Look at the footballer case about 12months ago where it was thrown out on appeal because the lady involved seemed to enjoy similar things with other suitors. It doesnt mean the case in question wasnt upholdable, but the appeal found it too similar

System of justice? What type?

We do agree on this. There is a massive range of possibilities/behaviours between a conviction of rape "beyond reasonable doubt", and a malicious false accusation of rape. We don't seem to have a decent way of dealing with it, and once it gets to the stage of an event actually happening it seems almost impossible to deal with correctly without overwhelming evidence one way or the other.

That's why I think that thing like consent lessons and better sex education are very, very important, because once the event has happened it is very, very difficult to deal with.

I also think there is a bit of a paradox between consent and sex, and innocent until proven guilty. Sex without consent is rape, but to presume innocence you have to presume that consent was given. Presuming consent is something that I'd argue you should never do, but at the same time you shouldn't assume guilt, making these cases very difficult.

[kowalski655]

Seems its also been a problem across the pond-prosecutors have to have a rule imposed on them that they disclose exculpatory evidence.
https://www.popehat.com/2017/11/03/california-supr...
Apparently an honourable obligation to the truth doesnt seem to xist

[saaby93]

Theyre still apologising for not having disclosed the evidence to prove innocence
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-42873618
But not saying why without that he would be assumed to be guilty

[davidball]

So the CPS and police are reviewing the failures to inform the defense of evidence that could aid the accused. Are the CPS and police investigating themselves again? if so the findings will not be trustworthy. There should be independent investigations.

If the police do not have the facilities to download emails from a mobile phone, read them into a purpose built database and automate SQL searches for target words and phrases I am sure the security services can show them.

[mjb1]

In the Liam Allen case, he'd been charged with 12 counts of rape and sexual assault. How do the number of charges work exactly - is that 12 separate occasions they had sex, or could all 12 counts have happened in the same meeting (1st count holding her hand, 2nd count hugging her, 3rd count kissing, etc, etc)? Because if it happened over several meetings, that in itself suggests that there must have been consent at the very least some of the time?

[moanthebairns]

mjb1 said:

In the Liam Allen case, he'd been charged with 12 counts of rape and sexual assault. How do the number of charges work exactly - is that 12 separate occasions they had sex, or could all 12 counts have happened in the same meeting (1st count holding her hand, 2nd count hugging her, 3rd count kissing, etc, etc)? Because if it happened over several meetings, that in itself suggests that there must have been consent at the very least some of the time?

It'll be ever time his penis has allegedly entered her vagina, mouth or anus forcefully without consent. Not joking thats the wording they use.

So probably shagged 12 times. They will argue that women can be in a relationship but still be raped numerous times as they are trapped, fragile etc.

[techguyone]

I'm not sure but I'd have thought as you say,a single occasion could mount up multiple offences, presumably they pick the most severe one, so 12 charges, could be over 12 occasions. I'm probably wrong though.

[moanthebairns]

techguyone said:

I'm not sure but I'd have thought as you say,a single occasion could mount up multiple offences, presumably they pick the most severe one, so 12 charges, could be over 12 occasions. I'm probably wrong though.

You are. Doesn't matter how many times in one night say or what is the most severe. They will list everything and you would be charged accordingly.

[saaby93]

Slightly different one here but same principle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42790...
What is it about the original evidence that seems strong enough to suggest guilt and the victim ( of these episodes) has to try to prove their innocence?

[Brave Fart]

Saaby93, I suppose we must be careful about selective video clips, but on the face of it the police officers in this one have behaved very badly. It appears they have been less than transparent afterwards. Still, "no wrongdoing"; lessons will no doubt be learned (yeah, right).

This is why I think there should be an independent review process that deals with disclosure and considers ALL evidence before the CPS make a decision. After all, in a case like this one, there must be a risk that the authorities will be unwilling to contradict their own officers. People will say "but, it'll be expensive" - not necessarily. It'll free up police time, and avoid wasted resources pursuing non-cases like this one in Bristol and recent rape cases.

Justice is too important to allow the prosecuting authorities to control disclosure, because those authorities can, and do, have an agenda.

[Ari]

cookie118 said:

To put it into perspective there are an estimated 11 rapes an hour in the UK. And yet less than 11 cases collapsing over a period of a month has been met with massive media attention in the past few weeks.

This is nothing to do with rapes.

This is to do with police pursuing a conviction irrespective of whether they committed a crime.

They had the evidence that he didn't do it, they chose to bury it and hope to send the innocent man down anyway.

(And I don't buy that they just hadn't noticed it. The defence surely would be screaming 'just check her phone records'. The accused knew they were there, they were between him and her - he'd already seen them!)

[amusingduck]

saaby93 said:

Slightly different one here but same principle
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-42790...
What is it about the original evidence that seems strong enough to suggest guilt and the victim ( of these episodes) has to try to prove their innocence?

bbc said:

Police statements said a bare-chested Max, who also has autism, stepped towards them and pushed a PC "double-handed in the chest with open palms" and the officer "stumbled back two foot" before the Taser was used.

Their justification for tazing him was a bare faced lie. No punishment for the officers.

[Fastpedeller]

I find it amazing that some Police become 'fearful' (or say they do!) in such circumstances. It reminds me of the Plebgate case, how can a Policeman think being called a pleb is so terrible? - crikey, I've been called worse, and I'm sure I live a somewhat sheltered existence compared to a police officer

[saaby93]

and another
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42892530
All of these are where by chance some evidence has been found and disclosed to show innocence and the case collapses
How many cases where such evidence isnt available?

[mac96]

saaby93 said:

and another
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-42892530
All of these are where by chance some evidence has been found and disclosed to show innocence and the case collapses
How many cases where such evidence isnt available?

That one seems in many ways more alarming than the others- the complainant was known by the police to be a liar from very early in the process. And yet they still proceeded to prosecution without bothering to review the evidence in full. And then also failed to disclose it on time .

[richie99]

Ari said:

This is nothing to do with rapes.

This is to do with police pursuing a conviction irrespective of whether they committed a crime.

They had the evidence that he didn't do it, they chose to bury it and hope to send the innocent man down anyway.

(And I don't buy that they just hadn't noticed it. The defence surely would be screaming 'just check her phone records'. The accused knew they were there, they were between him and her - he'd already seen them!)

You are absolutely right. The copper in the Allen case has claimed both that he couldn't be arsed to check the messages and also that they were too personal in nature to be disclosed. Still not to blame though and won't face any sanctions.