The U.S.A. Mass Shootings Thread

[Boom78]

g4ry13 said:

I think it's more a case of the horse has already bolted.

The problem in the US is there are so many guns in circulation and held by some rather unsavoury characters. People don't want to bring a knife to a gunfight (which would probably be better in honesty). The irony of course is that the moment you shoot at an attacker the situation escalates into something deadly.

The knife bit is interesting. On gun ranges the home protection bunch shoot up to 5m to recreate what the actual distance may be in a home, the reality is a baddie within 5m would close on you way before you managed to get a shot off (that would most likely miss too), pointless, Dogs much better as dealing with that threat.

[Last Visit]

I wonder if all Americans were polled on stuff like this what the outcome would be. How representative are the gun lobby and NRA views on gun ownership gun control etc.

[MKnight702]

Boom78 said:

WTF do you need all that for? That’s hardly sport based firearms; uzi’s, ARs, AK??

What you don't seem to get is shooting is fun, like sports cars are fun. You don't need a Ferrari that can do nearly triple the UK speed limit, but people buy them because they are fun.

Oh, and I do use my AKMS for target shooting.

[red_slr]

Boom78 said:

WTF do you need all that for? That’s hardly sport based firearms; uzi’s, ARs, AK??

I am going to guess that pic was taken in the Czech republic or similar.

[red_slr]

MKnight702 said:

Boom78 said:

WTF do you need all that for? That’s hardly sport based firearms; uzi’s, ARs, AK??

What you don't seem to get is shooting is fun, like sports cars are fun. You don't need a Ferrari that can do nearly triple the UK speed limit, but people buy them because they are fun.

Oh, and I do use my AKMS for target shooting.

This. Plus if I could have an MP5 I most certainly would!!!

[andy_s]

Petrus1983 said:

andy_s said:

Petrus1983 said:

I could show you 100+ videos where people have been gunned down by the police in the most ridiculous circumstances- yet this guy who’s just committed a massacre is shot in the most non lethal of ways. And it’s always the same people walking away.

Nice pics. Do you have data?

Yes - but you’ll need to wait a moment as I’m at work.

Anytime.

[Byker28i]

red_slr said:

Boom78 said:

WTF do you need all that for? That’s hardly sport based firearms; uzi’s, ARs, AK??

I am going to guess that pic was taken in the Czech republic or similar.

Strange that... linked from that directory As I said, hiring them for the occasional challenge.
Its much cheaper to shoot there than in the US, although in Vegas I did get to destroy cinder blocks with a Barrett M82

Sport wise, it's all clay shooting for me now, but thats rather going off topic.

[Byker28i]

Does the US ATF still have it's mostly paper based system (4473 form) that has to be filled in..
This was one of the changes that passed the house that the checks would be allowed over 10 days rather than 3 before automatically timing out.


“There is no national registration, there is no law or registry on the books that requires that gun owners have to either registered or convey how many guns they actually own,” said Edgar Domenech, a former deputy director of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.

Domenech noted there is no federal law that requires gun owners to be registered, but there are some states and cities, like New York City, that require owners to register their weapons with local authorities.

https://abcnews.go.com/US/guns-/story?id=53388007

Wasn't there some lobbying/law that prevented the forms being searchable by computer?

[dvs_dave]

2fast748 said:

g4ry13 said:

Suicides: you ask a question which can't really be quantified. I would say that those who are intent on committing suicide would find other ways to do it if guns were not available. Guns may very well lead to more 'success' rather than other methods such as overdose where people survive. There is the element that without guns it may require a bit more planning, whereas having a gun to hand does capture the act on a whim.

I'm sure I've read somewhere 75% of gun shot victims are suicides. Shooting yourself tends to be very successful compared to other (perhaps cries for help?) methods of suicide.

Looking at suicide stats, the US suicide rate is broadly similar to that of other first world countries. In other words, ready access to firearms doesn’t appear to result in an appreciably higher suicide rate.

[Boom78]

MKnight702 said:

What you don't seem to get is shooting is fun, like sports cars are fun. You don't need a Ferrari that can do nearly triple the UK speed limit, but people buy them because they are fun.

Oh, and I do use my AKMS for target shooting.

Crap analogy, one is designed to kill humans and maim (Ak, uzi, mp) effectively and efficiently the other for getting from A to B in style. People enjoyed all sorts of things over the centuries but luckily people saw sense and banned it.

[NMNeil]

Boom78 said:

Byker28i said:

Sport. Quite fun clay shooting with the various disciplines, or target shooting.

Or maybe hiring them for the occasional challenge, under strict control and supervision...



.

WTF do you need all that for? That’s hardly sport based firearms; uzi’s, ARs, AK??

It's not a case of need, but want.
Nobody 'needs' a 200MPH sports car to drive on the roads.

[NMNeil]

Boom78 said:

The knife bit is interesting. On gun ranges the home protection bunch shoot up to 5m to recreate what the actual distance may be in a home, the reality is a baddie within 5m would close on you way before you managed to get a shot off (that would most likely miss too), pointless, Dogs much better as dealing with that threat.

Knives and dogs can both be lethal as we all know.
Should we ban both?
https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/544629-su...
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/3-year-old-w...

[Boom78]

This thread has gone mental, it was started because of the shocking gun crime in the states, waves of mass killings of innocents and a chance to debate how to stop it all, now all of sudden it’s a bunch of gun boner nuts showing off their military grade guns, fave rounds choices and ‘whataboutism’. Bunch of high grade walts! Bonkers!!

[kowalski655]

g4ry13 said:

.....Suicides: you ask a question which can't really be quantified. I would say that those who are intent on committing suicide would find other ways to do it if guns were not available. Guns may very well lead to more 'success' rather than other methods such as overdose where people survive. There is the element that without guns it may require a bit more planning, whereas having a gun to hand does capture the act on a whim.

Almost certainly if the US had a decent mental health system:available without having to declare bankruptcy, and indeed ANY health system, suicides would be rarer

[dvs_dave]

kowalski655 said:

Almost certainly if the US had a decent mental health system:available without having to declare bankruptcy, and indeed ANY health system, suicides would be rarer

But the stats don't backup your rhetoric. US suicide rates aren't appreciably higher than in other first world countries, irrespective of the healthcare system, or gun laws.

[Boom78]

I’d love for the gun walts to tell the world why guns are a good idea in private ownership in this era based on the terrible volume of deaths from them?

As an aside I was pretty happy that our marines and paras have ditched SA80s in favour for colt Canada c7/8’s. The massive BUT is these are hardened heavily trained professional commandos/SF who kick doors in for a living and actually take on the bad guys, very different from some odd ball with an unhealthy gun fetish.

[jimmyjimjim]

Something you've likely not considered here is that a lot of the people with guns in the US are both ex-military, so highly trained themselves and actually spend significantly more time on the range once they retire, than they did while in the military.

[MKnight702]

Boom78 said:

I’d love for the gun walts to tell the world why guns are a good idea in private ownership in this era based on the terrible volume of deaths from them?

As an aside I was pretty happy that our marines and paras have ditched SA80s in favour for colt Canada c7/8’s. The massive BUT is these are hardened heavily trained professional commandos/SF who kick doors in for a living and actually take on the bad guys, very different from some odd ball with an unhealthy gun fetish.

Thread not going your way, sorry, not sorry and you can stop with the childish name calling.

Guns in the hands of responsible adults are not the problem in the same way a fast car in the hands of a responsible adult is not a problem.

Banning guns because gangs are killing each other is the same as banning car ownership because of joy riders crashing into others and killing them. When will the anti's realise that banning stuff doesn't make it vanish in a puff of rainbow coloured smoke, all it means is that the majority of responsible owners have their guns confiscated when they were not the issue, whilst the criminal, who by definition ignores the law, gets to keep his. Look at the "war on drugs" for an excellent example, we can't even keep illegal drugs out of prisons let alone off the street.

Two weeks ago (IIRC) the police in the UK raided two houses and confiscated an Uzi and two Skorpions, these have never been legal to own in the UK yet the criminals managed to get them.

In my opinion, the UK needs to stop punishing the legal owners by banning more and more guns that are held legally and crack down on the criminals, stiffer maximum punishments (currently 5 years IIRC for illegal possession), make it 25 years, the same as murder, since why would you need an illegal gun if not to shoot someone?

As for the US, they are a difficult one, the culture over there is very different to most other countries. Much stiffer punishment for illegal possession would be a good start, more stringent background checks (possibly, I don't know what they are like at the moment). However, the whole issue of gun ownership needs looking at, in my opinion, there needs to be a completely different approach, they need to start controlling ownership, not banning stuff. Graded licences perhaps, Grade 1 allows you to purchase a .22 rifle, grade 2 allows pistols etc with proper training to progress. A gun registry would be a really hard sell, and I don't think is required since the criminals don't go through legal channels, plus the main reason Governments implement a registry is so they know where to go looking when the ban stuff, there isn't really any other reason.

What scares me about the US is when you see someone who has absolutely no idea about gun safety or even basic operation, able to go into a store and, following a background check, they are able to walk out with whatever takes their fancy. With basic training a requirement, make the lowest grade(s) free at least you wouldn't be handing a Glock to a complete novice with only a vague idea that the sharp end shouldn't be looked down. Plus if the training is free it gets around the arguments that it is removing the rights/ability of the poorest in society to defend themselves.

Now, is that a good enough answer from a "walt" or are you going to whine some more?

[Boom78]

MKnight702 said:

Boom78 said:

I’d love for the gun walts to tell the world why guns are a good idea in private ownership in this era based on the terrible volume of deaths from them?

As an aside I was pretty happy that our marines and paras have ditched SA80s in favour for colt Canada c7/8’s. The massive BUT is these are hardened heavily trained professional commandos/SF who kick doors in for a living and actually take on the bad guys, very different from some odd ball with an unhealthy gun fetish.

Thread not going your way, sorry, not sorry and you can stop with the childish name calling.

Guns in the hands of responsible adults are not the problem in the same way a fast car in the hands of a responsible adult is not a problem.

Banning guns because gangs are killing each other is the same as banning car ownership because of joy riders crashing into others and killing them. When will the anti's realise that banning stuff doesn't make it vanish in a puff of rainbow coloured smoke, all it means is that the majority of responsible owners have their guns confiscated when they were not the issue, whilst the criminal, who by definition ignores the law, gets to keep his. Look at the "war on drugs" for an excellent example, we can't even keep illegal drugs out of prisons let alone off the street.

Two weeks ago (IIRC) the police in the UK raided two houses and confiscated an Uzi and two Skorpions, these have never been legal to own in the UK yet the criminals managed to get them.

In my opinion, the UK needs to stop punishing the legal owners by banning more and more guns that are held legally and crack down on the criminals, stiffer maximum punishments (currently 5 years IIRC for illegal possession), make it 25 years, the same as murder, since why would you need an illegal gun if not to shoot someone?

As for the US, they are a difficult one, the culture over there is very different to most other countries. Much stiffer punishment for illegal possession would be a good start, more stringent background checks (possibly, I don't know what they are like at the moment). However, the whole issue of gun ownership needs looking at, in my opinion, there needs to be a completely different approach, they need to start controlling ownership, not banning stuff. Graded licences perhaps, Grade 1 allows you to purchase a .22 rifle, grade 2 allows pistols etc with proper training to progress. A gun registry would be a really hard sell, and I don't think is required since the criminals don't go through legal channels, plus the main reason Governments implement a registry is so they know where to go looking when the ban stuff, there isn't really any other reason.

What scares me about the US is when you see someone who has absolutely no idea about gun safety or even basic operation, able to go into a store and, following a background check, they are able to walk out with whatever takes their fancy. With basic training a requirement, make the lowest grade(s) free at least you wouldn't be handing a Glock to a complete novice with only a vague idea that the sharp end shouldn't be looked down. Plus if the training is free it gets around the arguments that it is removing the rights/ability of the poorest in society to defend themselves.

Now, is that a good enough answer from a "walt" or are you going to whine some more?

I haven’t whinged, just asked for justification as to why private citizens need guns? Simple question deflected at every turn with references to fast cars, bad guys, responsible etc. Gangs are a small proportion of the killings by guns in the states with lots of legal guns owners causing the trouble whether it’s beef with someone or jilted ex/employee or plain racist, I’m sure the shooter in Vegas was responsible until he decided to blast off thousands of rounds with his bump stock rifles at innocent people.

Straight question, why do own/want a gun? Insecure? Macho? Waltism? Technical? Ol’boy feeling?

What is it? Simple question.

[MKnight702]

Boom78 said:

I haven’t whinged, just asked for justification as to why private citizens need guns? Simple question deflected at every turn with references to fast cars, bad guys, responsible etc. Gangs are a small proportion of the killings by guns in the states with lots of legal guns owners causing the trouble whether it’s beef with someone or jilted ex/employee or plain racist, I’m sure the shooter in Vegas was responsible until he decided to blast off thousands of rounds with his bump stock rifles at innocent people.

Straight question, why do own/want a gun? Insecure? Macho? Waltism? Technical? Ol’boy feeling?

What is it? Simple question.

I believe that several people, including myself, have already answered why. Because I enjoy shooting, it's fun. I use shotguns for killing vermin like pigeons and game birds like pheasants and I eat what I shoot. I shoot targets with rifles and pistols because, again, it is fun making small expensive holes in cheap cardboard, especially when the target is a long way away.

Anyway why are you calling me names and trying to make out that I am some sort of wannabe gangster or whatever? Not really grown up is it, I stopped calling people names in Primary school.

Boom78 said:

Insecure? Macho? Waltism? Technical? Ol’boy feeling?

Why do people own fast cars? Again because it is fun. You are on a car forum, so I presume that you enjoy spirited driving on occasion, well why do you enjoy that? A car is purely an object to get you from A to B safely, it doesn't need to have more than 80bhp and a top speed of any more than 71mph to do that? We enjoy these things because we find then fun, I don't need to justify what I find fun to anyone, but my shooting club has many members from all walks of society and in all flavours, male, female, non-binary, able bodied, disabled, black, white, young, old, tall and short, but we all compete on a level playing field.

Ownership in the US is obviously different because they may add self defence as a justification, but otherwise I presume the reasons for wanting a firearm are the same as here.