The U.S.A. Mass Shootings Thread

[alabbasi]

HM-2 said:

What you've "heard" is nice and all but it's no substitute for actual statistical data.

That's nonsense, statistical data generalizes information such as crimes per city. If you get down to the neighborhood level, you'll find that crimes happen in certain parts of the city that I can choose to not to live in or frequent because they're on the other side of town and I never need to go there. Unfortunately, can't do that in London because even if you spend a million GBP on a house, the council is quite happy to locate a bunch of hereon addicts a few streets down the road. So you have incidents where a 90 year old man on a mobility scooter can get stabbed to death by a mob in Hayes and nobody was able to do a thing about it.

wombat172a said:

Sorry, this can't be missed ]

Yep, that's right. I don't hear about it. I keep up with my neighbors, i'm on next-door and local social groups, I watch local news and I get notified on local police bulletins so i'm listening. Crime in London makes the national and international news and if someone says that they've never heard of it. It would be like saying that they've not heard of the war in Ukraine.

Edited by alabbasi on Monday 9th January 16:05

[Petrus1983]

I’m not leaping to anyones defence - but unless you’ve spent a fairly substantial time in the States it’s hard to appreciate just how focused crime is on certain areas - often there’s just a few blocks between beautiful houses and proper gang territory. And that leads me to something else - gangs. Gangs are a significant factor in gun crime in the States - and it’s no joke.

[Randy Winkman]

alabbasi said:

HM-2 said:

What you've "heard" is nice and all but it's no substitute for actual statistical data.

That's nonsense, statistical data generalizes information such as crimes per city. If you get down to the neighborhood level, you'll find that crimes happen in certain parts of the city that I can choose to not to live in or frequent because they're on the other side of town and I never need to go there. Unfortunately, can't do that in London because even if you spend a million GBP on a house, the council is quite happy to locate a bunch of hereon addicts a few streets down the road. So you have incidents where a 90 year old man on a mobility scooter can get stabbed to death by a mob in Hayes and nobody was able to do a thing about it.

wombat172a said:

Sorry, this can't be missed ]

Yep, that's right. I don't hear about it. I keep up with my neighbors, i'm on next-door and local social groups, I watch local news and I get notified on local police bulletins so i'm listening. Crime in London makes the national and international news and if someone says that they've never heard of it. It would be like saying that they've not heard of the war in Ukraine.

Edited by alabbasi on Monday 9th January 16:05

Where are all the heroin addicts in the US?

[alabbasi]

Randy Winkman said:

Where are all the heroin addicts in the US?

I don't know mate, it's not the type of group I associate with voluntarily or involuntarily

[HM-2]

alabbasi said:

That's nonsense, statistical data generalizes information such as crimes per city.

I'm going to stop you here, because nothing you've posted is remotely relevant to the point I was making. You were the one suggesting that home invasions in the US didn't exist because you didn't personally know of anyone who'd experienced one in your gated communities.

[djc206]

alabbasi said:

I don't know mate, it's not the type of group I associate with voluntarily or involuntarily

Do you live in a city? Because if you do you’ll see them everywhere although in fairness it’s fentanyl not heroin these days. I’ve not visited a single US city in the past decade that hasn’t had an eye watering level of homelessness almost exclusively linked to opiate abuse, often because the medical system is money driven and over prescribes opioids for pain relief.

[Randy Winkman]

djc206 said:

alabbasi said:

I don't know mate, it's not the type of group I associate with voluntarily or involuntarily

Do you live in a city? Because if you do you’ll see them everywhere although in fairness it’s fentanyl not heroin these days. I’ve not visited a single US city in the past decade that hasn’t had an eye watering level of homelessness almost exclusively linked to opiate abuse, often because the medical system is money driven and over prescribes opioids for pain relief.

That's what I was getting at. Perhaps I misunderstood, but Alabbasi seemed to suggest that you cant get away from heroin addicts in London but you can in other places. By the way, I've never seen anyone that I assume to be a heroin addict anywhere, but common sense suggests they are all over the place.

[off_again]

Petrus1983 said:

I’m not leaping to anyones defence - but unless you’ve spent a fairly substantial time in the States it’s hard to appreciate just how focused crime is on certain areas - often there’s just a few blocks between beautiful houses and proper gang territory. And that leads me to something else - gangs. Gangs are a significant factor in gun crime in the States - and it’s no joke.

Been in the US nearly 9 years now and I have never personally been near or heard any gun crime. Does that mean that it doesnt exist? Nope, not at all. As you mention, its because a lot of it is localized in specific areas. I am fortunate enough to be able to live in low crime areas and as a result I havent been exposed to it.

Does that mean that it doesnt happen here? Absolutely not. But this is where the statistics get confusing and easily twisted. I am not going to directly mention where I live, but we have had a couple of 'mass shootings' here, by the definition of the phrase. Each time was due to a mentally unstable person who had access to guns and decided that they were going to do something. I know that in two of these, they did result in a murder - one turned the gun on himself and the other was shot by Deputies (and survived). Statistically they are mass shootings as several people were involved, but we are talking 3 people involved.

I make it sound like its crazy here, but this pales into insignificance to what happens in the gang areas. Regular shootings and a local police force that often struggles. Access to firearms is a lot easier than you might imagine.

I will mention one final thing though - I did an NRA training course thing, was a fun thing to do I guess. However, the first evening was purely classroom work. At the end the instructor talked to people who owned guns and asked questions. She got onto the subject of storage (I am in California) and asked where people kept their guns and what where they. A couple of people piped up about keeping a loaded gun in a bedside drawer. She then proceeded to ask if the kids / grandkids had access to where they lived - the people answered yes. Thats illegal, a firearm must be secured. Then she asked one lady, who explained she had it for 'protection' but lived in an apartment on the middle floor. She had some sort of hand-cannon thing that would have gone through at least one wall, if not two or more - how the hell was this 'protection'? Of course, the instructor took her aside and explained how dangerous this was and what to do, but fear is ingrained into the strings of society here. People pray on those who think they are vulnerable, even when they arent.

[unrepentant]

AW111 said:

HM-2 said:

alabbasi said:

Not compared to England where homes are broken into while the occupants are in the house asleep.

Ridiculous red herring is ridiculous.
Are you saying that this doesn't happen in the US

Given that a large number of Americans claim to have guns to protect themselves from home invasion, alabnasi's claim is dubious to say the least.

It's a nation of scared little people.

We get people knocking on the door reasonably regularly (Indiana - open carry without permit, stand your ground etc..). I have also twice, accidently, left my garage doors open all night on 2 occasions. Power tools, Aston Martin, bikes etc.. all on display. Nobody touched anything. Having said that I live in a fairly crime free area and I'm sure if I was in downtown Indy my garage would have been empty in the morning.

I don't have a gun, have no desire to have one and don't feel threatened. In the 12 years I've been here I've probably seen a gun less than half a dozen times, usually when someone was moving it from one car to another. The only time it was in the least bit frightening was when I was at a light at a major intersection and a cop swung in front of me, jumped out, pulled his weapon and aimed it at the car next to me. He yelled at the guy a couple of times and eventually the guy just drove around him and off. The cop holstered his gun and chased after him. I'm assuming he didn't open fire as it was a busy intersection. It was shocking at the time as I was boxed in and couldn't move.

We have to do online compliance courses (cyber security, sexual harassment, data protection etc..) at work each year. For the first time this year there is an active shooter course which is a bit sobering. There are parts of cities here that I wouldn't go to at night on foot but that would also go for London and Manchester or any other big city.

[bigandclever]

alabbasi said:

So you have incidents where a 90 year old man on a mobility scooter can get stabbed to death by a mob in Hayes and nobody was able to do a thing about it.

Given they arrested and charged only one man for it, not sure where you get the 'mob' part.

[Bullett]

How do the people who keep a gun in a bedside table expect that to go? If I wake up in the night it takes me a few seconds to realise what's happening another few seconds to find my glasses/phone/light/gun etc.
You wake up and have an armed invader standing over sleepyhead you and they are probably wired, it's not going to go well in most cases.
Or it's one of the kids.

Just feeling like there are more ways for it to go wrong than right.

[HM-2]

bigandclever said:

alabbasi said:

So you have incidents where a 90 year old man on a mobility scooter can get stabbed to death by a mob in Hayes and nobody was able to do a thing about it.

Given they arrested and charged only one man for it, not sure where you get the 'mob' part.

There were 109 homicides in London in 2022, a city with a population of 8.98 million. That's a homicide rate of about 1.2 in 100,000.

By March 2022, Houston had matched this raw figure (city population of 2.288m) and as of August Houston had a murder rate of about 14.1 murders per 100,000. The year August 21 to August 22 saw an overall murder rate of 22.6 per 100,000. A little under 20x that of London.

[AW111]

Bullett said:

How do the people who keep a gun in a bedside table expect that to go? If I wake up in the night it takes me a few seconds to realise what's happening another few seconds to find my glasses/phone/light/gun etc.
You wake up and have an armed invader standing over sleepyhead you and they are probably wired, it's not going to go well in most cases.
Or it's one of the kids.

Just feeling like there are more ways for it to go wrong than right.

Statistics are pretty clear - having a gun in the home significantly raises the risk of someone in the household being shot.

[unrepentant]

AW111 said:

Bullett said:

How do the people who keep a gun in a bedside table expect that to go? If I wake up in the night it takes me a few seconds to realise what's happening another few seconds to find my glasses/phone/light/gun etc.
You wake up and have an armed invader standing over sleepyhead you and they are probably wired, it's not going to go well in most cases.
Or it's one of the kids.

Just feeling like there are more ways for it to go wrong than right.

Statistics are pretty clear - having a gun in the home significantly raises the risk of someone in the household being shot.

Yeah, I always figure that if I have a gun in the house one day the wife will use it on me.

[skwdenyer]

djc206 said:

alabbasi said:

I don't know mate, it's not the type of group I associate with voluntarily or involuntarily

Do you live in a city? Because if you do you’ll see them everywhere although in fairness it’s fentanyl not heroin these days. I’ve not visited a single US city in the past decade that hasn’t had an eye watering level of homelessness almost exclusively linked to opiate abuse, often because the medical system is money driven and over prescribes opioids for pain relief.

Linked to? Perhaps. Caused by? Unlikely. Many parts of the US are incredibly unequal, with little functioning safety net & something of a sink-or-swim attitude where life is surprisingly cheap. Which is depressing, given the US’ enormous economic advantages and all-but unlimited natural resources.

[fatbutt]

Petrus1983 said:

I’m not leaping to anyones defence - but unless you’ve spent a fairly substantial time in the States it’s hard to appreciate just how focused crime is on certain areas - often there’s just a few blocks between beautiful houses and proper gang territory. And that leads me to something else - gangs. Gangs are a significant factor in gun crime in the States - and it’s no joke.

We used to get group text messages from colleagues telling us of new gang initiations. E.g. if someone flashes their lights at you at night and you flash back, they pull you over and shoot you as an initiation task. The week after we left there was an incident at the T junction from our subdivision: a car drove up to the side of a couple, wound their windows down and shot them both. Was chalked up to a gang initiation. And its not like we were in a bad area, we were in Sienna Plantation in Missouri City, just outside of Houston. Sienna had its own security force that would turn up very rapidly at your house if the alarm went off, and they were armed. I accidentally set mine off and it was like the local SWAT got the call.

[Hill92]

HM-2 said:

alabbasi said:

You can never say never but I certainly have never heard of an incident happening on any occasion while living in Texas or Georgia these past 22 years.

According to the US Department of Justice, 66% of all burglaries in the US (some 1.65 million of circa 2.5 million total) are home invasions (IE take place when the occupants are home).

What you've "heard" is nice and all but it's no substitute for actual statistical data.

Edited by HM-2 on Monday 9th January 15:45

https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/tag/home-invasion/

This was a particularly high profile case in Dallas: white off-duty police entered wrong flat and shot dead the black householder, thinking that he was a burglar inner flat. Was found guilty of murder in the end.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_J...

[off_again]

unrepentant said:

We get people knocking on the door reasonably regularly (Indiana - open carry without permit, stand your ground etc..). I have also twice, accidently, left my garage doors open all night on 2 occasions. Power tools, Aston Martin, bikes etc.. all on display. Nobody touched anything. Having said that I live in a fairly crime free area and I'm sure if I was in downtown Indy my garage would have been empty in the morning.

Me too - done it a few times to be exact. Nothing stolen. Though I dont have an Aston.....



I also have had the opportunity to not live in high crime areas, but I havent suffered anything. Low level crime was a problem I suffered in the UK and I have unfortunately had a number of situations where it affected my standard of living. Here in the US, I havent had any issues and this is broadly what most people experience here - though high crime areas are not great.

unrepentant said:

I don't have a gun, have no desire to have one and don't feel threatened. In the 12 years I've been here I've probably seen a gun less than half a dozen times, usually when someone was moving it from one car to another. The only time it was in the least bit frightening was when I was at a light at a major intersection and a cop swung in front of me, jumped out, pulled his weapon and aimed it at the car next to me. He yelled at the guy a couple of times and eventually the guy just drove around him and off. The cop holstered his gun and chased after him. I'm assuming he didn't open fire as it was a busy intersection. It was shocking at the time as I was boxed in and couldn't move.

Never even had this. California isnt an open carry state, but never even seen any law enforcement draw a weapon.

We have had a number of 'shelter in place' orders in the last few months, but this has been really focused on situations where someone who is unstable was identified with a weapon - not necessarily a gun - for law enforcement to control the situation. Though I would say that we had someone rob the local bank and escape on a bicycle.... he got away.... you cant make this stuff up sometimes.

[captain_cynic]

bigandclever said:

alabbasi said:

So you have incidents where a 90 year old man on a mobility scooter can get stabbed to death by a mob in Hayes and nobody was able to do a thing about it.

Given they arrested and charged only one man for it, not sure where you get the 'mob' part.

I suspect he got it from the same place where he gets all his info... His arse.

alabbasi hasn't bothered to post any statistics because he doesn't even want to look them up. He already knows what he's saying is utter bullst and doesn't want to have to face it.

My American colleges ask me, as a self defence practitioner, what I would do if I was mugged at knifepoint. They were shocked that the answer was "give them my phone and my wallet and hope that's all they're after". They were even more shocked that it's not an event the average UK resident thinks about as most people will go through their entire lives without getting mugged. Violent crime is not a fact of life here.

[KaraK]

Hill92 said:

https://www.cbsnews.com/dfw/tag/home-invasion/

This was a particularly high profile case in Dallas: white off-duty police entered wrong flat and shot dead the black householder, thinking that he was a burglar inner flat. Was found guilty of murder in the end.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Botham_J...

As far as I can tell "killing black people who were just minding their own business" is pretty much de rigueur for American Law Enforcement; Atatiana Jefferson, Breonna Taylor, Fanta Bility, Cameron Lamb, James Brissette, Ronald Madison (he was mentally disabled as well - so that's double points I think), the list goes on