BBC Womens pay gap
Discussion
WinstonWolf said:
I've not said they shouldn't argue the case but I doubt most judges have spent a day in a freezing (or sweltering) warehouse.
If the job is open to everyone but women *choose* not to do it then there's no pay bias.
Totally agree. No Judge has said anything different, only that the case can proceed to the next stage where the points you raise about the job itself will be considered - by the tribunal not the Judges. Hopefully the tribunal bods will know what it is like (but probably not), so will instead have sufficient evidence presented by Asda et al to make the case. There is a lot riding on it.If the job is open to everyone but women *choose* not to do it then there's no pay bias.
JagLover said:
In terms of unintended consequences if supermarkets start having to pay checkout workers the same as warehouse workers they might embrace technological solutions like this earlier.
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2018/12/amazo...
A very good friend of mine worked for a company that designed the system to allow supermarkets to reduce staff by scary numbers. https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2018/12/amazo...
The system could be paid for over 72 months, costing no more than the wages it replaced, and after 72 months the supermarkets would have reduced their 'wages' bill by at least 70%, that includes the cost of running the system.
The only reason they are not jumping on this is one of morals and, more likely, public perception.
But more rules and regulations are doing the exact opposite of protecting the UKs workforces.
That is why many have to be careful voting for Corbyn's minimum wage of £21k a year for everyone too.
JagLover said:
In terms of unintended consequences if supermarkets start having to pay checkout workers the same as warehouse workers they might embrace technological solutions like this earlier.
https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2018/12/amazo...
Well the supermarkets already have the public doing most of the checkout operator's job themselves, with self-checkout machines ... they don't make us drive our own forklifts though. Tells me something about the relative difficulties and safety risks of the checkout vs warehouse roles!https://www.retailgazette.co.uk/blog/2018/12/amazo...
Type R Tom said:
Won't ASDA just lower the warehouse wage and not raise the checkout staff? Everyone one will lose! Working there as a student on a deli, the butchers next door got paid more and I accepted it as they were classed as skilled, alongside the Bakers. The warehouse guys could drive a folk lift so for me that was reflected in their wages.
I would also expect that warehouse worker is harder, dirtier and colder than working in a supermarket. The market decides what it pays and it will take into account the conditionsWomen are not barred from warehouse work, so it then becomes a personal choice. If the people bringing the case want that level of pay why not just apply for the job. If you don't want to do that sort of work then you have your answer as to why it pays more.
98elise said:
Type R Tom said:
Won't ASDA just lower the warehouse wage and not raise the checkout staff? Everyone one will lose! Working there as a student on a deli, the butchers next door got paid more and I accepted it as they were classed as skilled, alongside the Bakers. The warehouse guys could drive a folk lift so for me that was reflected in their wages.
I would also expect that warehouse worker is harder, dirtier and colder than working in a supermarket. The market decides what it pays and it will take into account the conditionsWomen are not barred from warehouse work, so it then becomes a personal choice. If the people bringing the case want that level of pay why not just apply for the job. If you don't want to do that sort of work then you have your answer as to why it pays more.
They don't care - they need JUSTICE AGAINST SOMETHING OR OTHER!!!!!
bstb3 said:
Judgement: https://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWCA/Civ/2019/8.ht...
It was about if the claim could proceed to an employment tribunal, not the outcome of that tribunal.
It seems the 'comparable' nature of the jobs was decided by the terms and conditions being the same at the warehouses and supermarkets, not a specific warehouse person = cashier comparison. It means the claim for discrimination in pay can now proceed to being assessed against:
1) Are the roles of equal value (...good luck working that out..) - which the claimants must show they are
2) Are there any reasons other than sexual discrimination why the pay might differ.
Equal value test is broadly looking at:
•the job demands, such as the skills and knowledge the jobs require, and
•the responsibilities and sorts of problems the jobholders have to deal with
It will be these two points where the arguments that really distinguish the roles will come into play - job market, working duties etc. At which point if common sense doesn't prevail that Asda et al don't just choose to pay warehouse people more because of there average genitalia, its what the market requires to get and retain people because the roles are actually quite different, then there really is no hope.
"Equal value" seem a very odd measure. I sit at a desk, type into a keyboard and make calls. On the same floor there is a team of mostly women who sit at desks, type into keyboards, and make calls. They chase invoice payments all day long. They indirectly contribute to the companies finances way more than I do, however it's essentially a low skilled job. It was about if the claim could proceed to an employment tribunal, not the outcome of that tribunal.
It seems the 'comparable' nature of the jobs was decided by the terms and conditions being the same at the warehouses and supermarkets, not a specific warehouse person = cashier comparison. It means the claim for discrimination in pay can now proceed to being assessed against:
1) Are the roles of equal value (...good luck working that out..) - which the claimants must show they are
2) Are there any reasons other than sexual discrimination why the pay might differ.
Equal value test is broadly looking at:
•the job demands, such as the skills and knowledge the jobs require, and
•the responsibilities and sorts of problems the jobholders have to deal with
It will be these two points where the arguments that really distinguish the roles will come into play - job market, working duties etc. At which point if common sense doesn't prevail that Asda et al don't just choose to pay warehouse people more because of there average genitalia, its what the market requires to get and retain people because the roles are actually quite different, then there really is no hope.
Edited by bstb3 on Friday 1st February 10:19
My job is highly skilled and I earn a very good wage. It is the sole reason I earn more, yet the finance team do essentially the same basic tasks.
My job is not exclusive to men, in any way. The main barrier to entry is qualifications and experience.
98elise said:
I would also expect that warehouse worker is harder, dirtier and colder than working in a supermarket. The market decides what it pays and it will take into account the conditions
I worked in a supermarket warehouse for a while (not Asda, but one of the big ones), and I was a fit and healthy 20 year old and it was very tiring. It was a chilled warehouse, where the temp is kept at one degree, which is a major factor. Very physical work, most of the people I've seen working supermarket checkouts wouldn't last a shift in warehouse. I guess they're basing the case on the fact that stacking the shelves when the goods get to the supermarket is comparable. Except it isn't really - the temperature is a lot warmer and the work rate considerably slower. I've had the pleasure of working for a few months in Asda's chilled warehouse in portbury (now moved). Took as a temp job whilst waiting to start a more corporate grad scheme over a decade ago.
It can be hard, dirty, cold work. Pick rates can be well into 000's of items per day. One of those big plastic trays that measures about 2' x1' with 20kg of potatoes or carrots in that finds its way into the produce dept - that whole tray counts as 1.
A pallet full on a roller truck would be pulled manually around a course of a couple hundred meters, dropping off cases at various points until the pallet is empty.... then repeat.
(Admittedly pallets of round letticue were somewhat easier).
The freezer guys would get more breaks and different pick rates, and work slightly different my; though In the summer going from -20 degrees to +20 outside for a 10 min break before back into -20 can take its toll though.
That said there are those that enjoy it and treat. It as some kind of free gym.
I've never worked on a checkout so can't compare, though you have to be physically up to some of the warehouse roles.
In my current, white collar role, similar to a previous poster I tend to read documents, read and send emails and attend meetings and ask people to do stuff - though im now far better paid than an admin assistant who it could be argued does the same.
It can be hard, dirty, cold work. Pick rates can be well into 000's of items per day. One of those big plastic trays that measures about 2' x1' with 20kg of potatoes or carrots in that finds its way into the produce dept - that whole tray counts as 1.
A pallet full on a roller truck would be pulled manually around a course of a couple hundred meters, dropping off cases at various points until the pallet is empty.... then repeat.
(Admittedly pallets of round letticue were somewhat easier).
The freezer guys would get more breaks and different pick rates, and work slightly different my; though In the summer going from -20 degrees to +20 outside for a 10 min break before back into -20 can take its toll though.
That said there are those that enjoy it and treat. It as some kind of free gym.
I've never worked on a checkout so can't compare, though you have to be physically up to some of the warehouse roles.
In my current, white collar role, similar to a previous poster I tend to read documents, read and send emails and attend meetings and ask people to do stuff - though im now far better paid than an admin assistant who it could be argued does the same.
Some of the gender pay gap reports coming in and a few snapshots that help illustrate how ludicrous the whole thing can be
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47252848
BBC said:
The gap at car mechanics chain Kwik Fit grew from a negative gender pay gap - when women get paid more - of minus 15.2% to a positive one of 14%.
A company spokeswoman said the industry had been "historically more appealing to men", although it was trying to recruit more women.
"Last year most of our female employees were in our upper quartile of salary bands, however over the course of the last 12 months a number of these senior employees have left the company, a shift which has skewed our figures."
A company spokeswoman said the industry had been "historically more appealing to men", although it was trying to recruit more women.
"Last year most of our female employees were in our upper quartile of salary bands, however over the course of the last 12 months a number of these senior employees have left the company, a shift which has skewed our figures."
BBC said:
According to the available data, the gender pay gap at energy giant Npower has grown from 13% to 18% since it last reported.
It partially attributed this to more female than male employees opting for a salary sacrifice benefits scheme.
So presumable gender pay gap reporting doesn't take into account salary sacrifice benefits?, a large one could be childcare. It partially attributed this to more female than male employees opting for a salary sacrifice benefits scheme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47252848
There was a woman from PWC on the BBC this morning who gave us the anecdotal soundbite that a young girl was told how being an architect wasn't for her (in the context of having a long way to go on equality). Nothing more on the anecdote, just that.
My OH shouted at the TV asking if the girl was any good at maths and could draw
Why does this keep getting brought up with such shoddy assessment of the data....
Western society is going to disappear up its own hole unless we can be much more measured/objective.
My OH shouted at the TV asking if the girl was any good at maths and could draw
Why does this keep getting brought up with such shoddy assessment of the data....
Western society is going to disappear up its own hole unless we can be much more measured/objective.
JagLover said:
Some of the gender pay gap reports coming in and a few snapshots that help illustrate how ludicrous the whole thing can be
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47252848
They should also publish the hours worked figures so we can see if they're comparing apples with oranges.BBC said:
The gap at car mechanics chain Kwik Fit grew from a negative gender pay gap - when women get paid more - of minus 15.2% to a positive one of 14%.
A company spokeswoman said the industry had been "historically more appealing to men", although it was trying to recruit more women.
"Last year most of our female employees were in our upper quartile of salary bands, however over the course of the last 12 months a number of these senior employees have left the company, a shift which has skewed our figures."
A company spokeswoman said the industry had been "historically more appealing to men", although it was trying to recruit more women.
"Last year most of our female employees were in our upper quartile of salary bands, however over the course of the last 12 months a number of these senior employees have left the company, a shift which has skewed our figures."
BBC said:
According to the available data, the gender pay gap at energy giant Npower has grown from 13% to 18% since it last reported.
It partially attributed this to more female than male employees opting for a salary sacrifice benefits scheme.
So presumable gender pay gap reporting doesn't take into account salary sacrifice benefits?, a large one could be childcare. It partially attributed this to more female than male employees opting for a salary sacrifice benefits scheme.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-47252848
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/04/google-found-its-u...
Google found it was underpaying more men than women for similar jobs
Google found it was underpaying more men than women for similar jobs
amusingduck said:
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/03/04/google-found-its-u...
Google found it was underpaying more men than women for similar jobs
Have we got a movement to campaign for male equailty?Google found it was underpaying more men than women for similar jobs
I have the suspsicion this could all backfire spectacularly for some sectors.
Looks like the gender pay gap reporting is complete to April 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50220175
Few snapshots
The pay gap for all workers fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline, the ONS said.
the gender pay gap for full-time workers rose to 8.9% - up from 8.6% the previous year.
The pay gap for full time employees under the age of forty is practically zero. The charity complains it will take decades to gain complete equality, but other than forcing everyone over forty to immediately retire I am not entirely sure how they plan to make things move any faster.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50220175
Few snapshots
The pay gap for all workers fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline, the ONS said.
the gender pay gap for full-time workers rose to 8.9% - up from 8.6% the previous year.
The pay gap for full time employees under the age of forty is practically zero. The charity complains it will take decades to gain complete equality, but other than forcing everyone over forty to immediately retire I am not entirely sure how they plan to make things move any faster.
JagLover said:
Looks like the gender pay gap reporting is complete to April 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50220175
Few snapshots
The pay gap for all workers fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline, the ONS said.
the gender pay gap for full-time workers rose to 8.9% - up from 8.6% the previous year.
The pay gap for full time employees under the age of forty is practically zero. The charity complains it will take decades to gain complete equality, but other than forcing everyone over forty to immediately retire I am not entirely sure how they plan to make things move any faster.
...or women approaching forty to ignore their biological clock, stop having babies and keep grafting at their career ensuring they keep parity with their male counterparts.https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50220175
Few snapshots
The pay gap for all workers fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline, the ONS said.
the gender pay gap for full-time workers rose to 8.9% - up from 8.6% the previous year.
The pay gap for full time employees under the age of forty is practically zero. The charity complains it will take decades to gain complete equality, but other than forcing everyone over forty to immediately retire I am not entirely sure how they plan to make things move any faster.
JagLover said:
Looks like the gender pay gap reporting is complete to April 2019
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50220175
Few snapshots
The pay gap for all workers fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline, the ONS said.
the gender pay gap for full-time workers rose to 8.9% - up from 8.6% the previous year.
The pay gap for full time employees under the age of forty is practically zero. The charity complains it will take decades to gain complete equality, but other than forcing everyone over forty to immediately retire I am not entirely sure how they plan to make things move any faster.
The materinity pay gap. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50220175
Few snapshots
The pay gap for all workers fell from 17.8% in 2018 to 17.3% in 2019, and continues to decline, the ONS said.
the gender pay gap for full-time workers rose to 8.9% - up from 8.6% the previous year.
The pay gap for full time employees under the age of forty is practically zero. The charity complains it will take decades to gain complete equality, but other than forcing everyone over forty to immediately retire I am not entirely sure how they plan to make things move any faster.
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